(October 20, 2010 at 10:35 am)Chuck Wrote: They do, but we don't make it legal (not okay, but permissible, you understand) so as to let their beaters feel more secure about it.

Ok. Can't argue with this.

(October 20, 2010 at 11:07 am)Skipper Wrote: Thats not the point. In western societies it is condemned, illegal and people as a whole agree its an evil thing to do. Islam and it's political offspring however, again and again shows its contempt for women.

Ok. Can't argue with this either.

(October 20, 2010 at 11:56 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: ....but neither are atheist parents and figures of authority teaching their children as they grow up that it is permissible for a man to beat a woman if she 'misbehaves' and that she should accept such treatment.

ok. This also.

Quote:As if women in the Western World don't get beaten as well.

shhhhhhhhhhh thats a secret.

Quote:It is a particular disease in all the Judeo-Christian-Islamic sects. Actually, fact is, in the Western world it was only some Native American cultures and Celtic ones that I have read gave women equal social and religious rights, or occasionally ran on a matriarchal system. I don't know the eastern ones very well, so I can't speak for them.

Those dam Christians, Jews and Muslims! we all stayed pagans we would be so much better off! Dont you think it is silly to blame a religion? Human nature causes people to treat others badly.

Quote:What about the so-called honor killings in the Muslim world? That's been making the news lately.
If a wife, or children, somehow dishonors their family, the Muslim husband has a right to kill them. Two American teen aged girls were murdered by their Egyptian father because they were dating non Muslim boys. The father fled to Egypt to avoid murder charges in the U.S. The video is disturbing...

Are you serious?
An abortionist doctor was killed by a Christian, therefore you and the Bible say that abortion doctors should be killed. You see your logic?

---

Quote: Islam and it's political offspring however, again and again shows its contempt for women.

Are you chopping and choosing?

Quote:In the 1930s, Turkey became one of the first countries in the world to give full political rights to women, including the right to elect and be elected locally (in 1930) and nation wide (in 1934). Therefore, the Constitution was amended.[93]

Article 10 of the Turkish Constitution bans any discrimination, state or private, on the grounds of sex. Turkey elected a female prime minister, Tansu Çiller in 1995. It is also the first country which had a woman as the President of its Constitutional Court, Tülay Tuğcu. In addition, Turkish Council of State, the supreme court for administrative cases, also has a woman judge Sumru Çörtoğlu as its President. However, representation of women in political and decision making bodies is low. In the Grand National Assembly of Turkey the percentage of women is 9.1 (17.3 percent is the average in the world).[93] In 1975 the percentage was 10.9 and in 2006 it was 16.3.[94] Only 5.58 percent of mayors are women and in the whole of Turkey there is one governor (among 81) and 14 local governors.[93]

Since 1985, Turkish women have the right to freely exercise abortions in the first 10 weeks of pregnancy and the right to contraceptive medicine paid for by the Social Security. Modifications to the Civil Code in 1926 gave the right to women to initiate and obtain a divorce; a right still not recognized in Malta,[95] an EU country.

and malaysia
http://www.unicef.org/malaysia/reallives_6191.html

Quote:Those dam Christians, Jews and Muslims! we all stayed pagans we would be so much better off!

Probably true. At least we wouldn't have wasted 1,500 years on bullshit.

(October 21, 2010 at 1:29 am)solja247 Wrote:

Quote:It is a particular disease in all the Judeo-Christian-Islamic sects. Actually, fact is, in the Western world it was only some Native American cultures and Celtic ones that I have read gave women equal social and religious rights, or occasionally ran on a matriarchal system. I don't know the eastern ones very well, so I can't speak for them.

Those dam Christians, Jews and Muslims! we all stayed pagans we would be so much better off! Dont you think it is silly to blame a religion? Human nature causes people to treat others badly.

Uh...please read the rest of my posting, I think I addressed that for anyone who actually read it. I'm sorry I do not have the time today to rehash it as thoroughly as you seem to need, but "real life" outside of these forums calls. Short version: I think my actual point was that humans will hurt each other no matter what, but religion, particularly monotheistic ones like those I said above, give them better excuses to do so. And I wasn't arguing FOR paganism, since I said only SOME cultures - the Greeks and Romans were just as shitty to their women as well, for all we laud them.

(October 21, 2010 at 1:29 am)solja247 Wrote:

Quote:What about the so-called honor killings in the Muslim world? That's been making the news lately.
If a wife, or children, somehow dishonors their family, the Muslim husband has a right to kill them. Two American teen aged girls were murdered by their Egyptian father because they were dating non Muslim boys. The father fled to Egypt to avoid murder charges in the U.S. The video is disturbing...

Quote:Are you serious?
[quote]An abortionist doctor was killed by a Christian, therefore you and the Bible say that abortion doctors should be killed.

You see your logic?

---

What are you talking about? I just asked a question. Some Muslim nations sanction these so-called honor killings. The father who murdered his own teen daughters fled to Egypt to avoid prosecution the U.S.

Quote:An abortionist doctor was killed by a Christian, therefore you and the Bible say that abortion doctors should be killed.

...is that what I say? Are you accusing me? While I condemn abortion, I also condemn the murdering of the doctors who perform them. The person who killed the abortion doctor was prosecuted for murder by our law. An abortionist doctor was killed by a Christian, therefore you think the Muslim father was justified in killing his daughters. Is that your logic?

Quote:Probably true. At least we wouldn't have wasted 1,500 years on bullshit.

How so?

Quote:I think my actual point was that humans will hurt each other no matter what, but religion, particularly monotheistic ones like those I said above, give them better excuses to do so.

Evil people will always be evil with or without religion. Good people will be good with or without religion. People will always find an excuse to be evil, if they want to live an evil life. I dont think we can really blame it all on religion.

Quote:What are you talking about? I just asked a question. Some Muslim nations sanction these so-called honor killings. The father who murdered his own teen daughters fled to Egypt to avoid prosecution the U.S.

So?

Quote:...is that what I say? Are you accusing me? While I condemn abortion, I also condemn the murdering of the doctors who perform them. The person who killed the abortion doctor was prosecuted for murder by our law. An abortionist doctor was killed by a Christian, therefore you think the Muslim father was justified in killing his daughters. Is that your logic?

No. You were asking if all Muslims accept honor killings and I used the same logic on fundamentaliist christians who kill people, therefore all christians give it the thumbs up. I could be wrong, perhaps I didnt quite understand you.

(October 22, 2010 at 7:42 am)solja247 Wrote:

Quote:I think my actual point was that humans will hurt each other no matter what, but religion, particularly monotheistic ones like those I said above, give them better excuses to do so.

Evil people will always be evil with or without religion. Good people will be good with or without religion. People will always find an excuse to be evil, if they want to live an evil life. I dont think we can really blame it all on religion.

But as the tired, and in this case relevant saying goes "it takes religion to make a good person do evil things". There is no doubt in my mind that without religion the world would be a less violent and evil place. People use religion as a justification for their actions, if they didn't have the word of god as they see it telling them things they do are ok, they wouldn't. It's simple as that. Of course there would always be evil even without religion, but there would be a hell of a lot less.

I didn't blame it all on religion, and I freely admitted that atheists are capable of being violent as well. What I said was the religion gave the violence an excuse for its existence.

But I like that you admit that evil people will be evil with or without religion, and vice versa.

Quote:How so?

Xtianity set back knowledge in the west by suppressing thinking for 1500 years. It was not until the west began to throw off the dogma of you jesus freaks that we began to progress.

Think how different the world might have been were it not for the Dark Ages...if you can.

(October 22, 2010 at 12:58 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:How so?

Xtianity set back knowledge in the west by suppressing thinking for 1500 years. It was not until the west began to throw off the dogma of you jesus freaks that we began to progress.

Think how different the world might have been were it not for the Dark Ages...if you can.

One might easily argue that while Christianity held back western progress starting from 14th or 15th century, but it would seem to me harder to argue that Christianity had the same net effect before the crusades.

It seems to me that before this era, Christianity preserved at least a core of cohesive, literate civilization with some tenuous access to cosmopolitan intellectual menu, however saddled with an overpowering illiberal superstition, when much of the west could easily have descended completely into totally illiterate and completely fragmented iron age tribal morass. Free thinking starting on a basis of total illiteracy and complete provincialistic outlook would not necessarily bring one scientific enlightenment in less time than opporessive atmophere that does provide the basic tool of literacy and access, however tenuous, to much wider intellectual menu from around the western world as well as Byzentine and near near east.