robvalue

Pain & pleasure. After all, we need them both anyhow to make sense out of anything.
And both in this life are acting temporarily.

Irrational

A romantic concept indeed.

Chuck

The universe. The matter of existence is related to the cherry blossom, the rain, how we happened to be in a place that is filled with wildlife that is lesser than us; dinosaurs vanished moments before we arrive (long moments),  as if the stage was for us to rule, if we search for beauty we find it, so as for food, if you wanted to take the path of evolution or that path of direct existence, the stage was set.

We live for a short while, then die.
Still though, grim somehow & full of hardship.

To my head, something is testing me for something. The cherry blossom gives many signs.

Aractus

Believe it or not, nobody taught me anything, all of this I do here is "self study".
My memory doesn't serve me right in remembering the Bible's history; all I do remember that this was the point of where the religion was "altered beyond repair":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Here, the religion (through the chosen priests) were all compromised, and finally Rome had found a good new heathen religion to follow.

About the books, it depends on which version was actually found. Maybe they found a version that was written long long after Jesus's death. Yet again, was 2000 years for real ? I don't trust dates that much when it's that ancient. maybe he was born a 600 years before the recorded date of his birth, let alone his body wasn't even found or discovered.

We don't need pain if we couldn't be hurt. If I was designing some buddies and putting them in an environment of my choosing, I wouldn't make it possible for them to be hurt by anything. So no need for pain. I guess God likes the hurt and pain.

Of course, from an evolutionary point of view, pain makes perfect sense. It certainly is a bizarre phenomenon though.

(October 4, 2015 at 6:31 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Aractus

Believe it or not, nobody taught me anything, all of this I do here is "self study".
My memory doesn't serve me right in remembering the Bible's history; all I do remember that this was the point of where the religion was "altered beyond repair":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Here, the religion (through the chosen priests) were all compromised, and finally Rome had found a good new heathen religion to follow.

About the books, it depends on which version was actually found. Maybe they found a version that was written long long after Jesus's death. Yet again, was 2000 years for real ? I don't trust dates that much when it's that ancient. maybe he was born a 600 years before the recorded date of his birth, let alone his body wasn't even found or discovered.

Typical Muslim.

The Qumran Scrolls were discovered by Arabs and are up to 2200 years old. Their text is exactly identical to the Leningrad Codex (with the obvious exception of it being in a more ancient script).


You are not seriously saying you think that Jesus lived in 5-600 BC are you? Paul knew the family of Jesus, James (the brother) wrote his epistle around 49 AD (well before any of the gospels) and has at least 26 direct citations to the says of Jesus, including 16 just to the Sermon on the Mount, and Acts 13-28 is written in the first-person-narrative.

As for his body, that's a moot point. He was laid in a tomb according to all four gospels that was owned by Joseph of Arimathea. Where the body went from there is not important - I think the family took possession of it and laid it in their own plot.

The MT as the name suggests was preserved by Jews not Christians. So don't come and make uninformed arguments about the texts.

OP: Hi, I'm a Christian. Help Me Disprove My Religion!

A: What, just like that? No dinner first, no coin .. just help you out? I think not.

I think we scared him off.

(September 22, 2015 at 8:00 pm)WishfulThinking Wrote: Salutations theists, atheists, and agnostics!

Now, before we get started, I'd like to say that I recognize that you are under no obligation whatsoever to help me out. If you don't have the time or inclination to do so, feel free to pass this thread by, and let it fade away into obscurity. However, if you would be willing to help me, I would very much appreciate it.

Right, so first off, as the title states, I'm a Christian. Second of all, I'm really hoping that my religion is a lie, and that you can prove it to me.

Why I'm Making This Thread

Perhaps I should give you my reasons for this request, just so you have a better idea of where I'm coming from. Y'see, I've been thinking a lot about God and Hell, and how incredibly pessimistic my religion happens to be. The world is filled with thousands of religions and beliefs (roughly 4,200, if google is correct), one of which is probably true. Most of these have some idea of what the afterlife is. I've been thinking lately about how my religion being true is probably the second or third worst case scenario in this regard.

If my religion is true, then roughly 68% of the world's population goes to Hell (probably more). The only possibilities that seem worse than this would be that a dead religion were true, in which case we all go to its version of Hell, or if a smaller religion with an even worse version of Hell were true. Right now, the only thing that's keeping me from giving into despair about how much reality sucks is that there exists the possibility that my religion is false.


I grew up in a Christian family, always a little unsure about whether or not I believed it. Even now, the best evidence I have that I believe it is how afraid I am of God. However, I don't have evidence to back my belief up, or to disprove it. For those of you reading that are Christians, I'm not accusing Christians of not having evidence to back up their beliefs (some of the smartest people I know are Christians who have tested their faith), I'm simply saying that I, personally, do not. I don't think I can find it within me to leave my religion behind without proof that it's false, even if I can't back my faith up. I also figure that I can't really continue life without figuring out what I believe and having good reasons for it, so I need to prove/disprove my religion as soon as possible. I decided that attempting to disprove my religion might be the best/most efficient way to start, hence my coming to this forum to seek your help (and by you, I mean non-Christians, theist and atheist alike).

Sorry about the personal details above. Again, I just want you to know where I'm honestly coming from. Also again, you don't have to help me here if you don't want to. Feel free to ignore this thread.

What I'm Asking For

This site being what it is, I imagine a lot of you have debated Christians in the past. Some of you might even be former Christians. Throughout all your investigations, arguments, and general dealings with Christianity, what are the best arguments against its truth and validity that you've encountered? What contradictions in its teachings have you found?

Please note that I'm not looking for arguments against God, but rather, arguments against Christianity specifically. Also, I'm looking for arguments towards Christianity's beliefs, not its people. I figure that there are hypocrites within every religion and/or belief system, and pointing them out doesn't say the religion is wrong, it just says some of the people saying that they follow it aren't honest.

Also, (I know I'm asking a lot of y'all, so remember you can ignore this thread) if you present evidence such as articles or historical documents, it would be fantastic if you could give me a link to them, or give me information that would allow me to find them (title, author, etc.).

It is my intention to use the information you give me that seems most convincing (that I understand and can't argue against), and present it to other Christians I know irl. If I find enough evidence that they can't successfully argue against, then, well, it's my hope that my beliefs regarding Christianity will change (and I'll be free from fear of God and Hell).

Greetings to you,

I just saw this thread and did not read all 20 + pages, so I’m just responding to your opening post.

I was a Christian for 25 years. I attended churches where the Bible was taught and graduated from Biola University where I studied under knowledgeable Bible professors and theologians. Basically my move away from Christianity was, as they say, a process, not an event. It wasn’t one thing or one compelling argument that convinced me Christianity is false. It was a confluence of things and a slow but steady increase in cognitive dissonance. It may or may not be that way for you. The last straw is not necessarily the heaviest straw. With that background and caveat, I will address your request.

1. Geological evidence - not long ago I posted a thread in which I put the biblical creation story in juxtaposition to the geological record and found they do not concur. http://atheistforums.org/thread-33882.ht...cal+record
2. Moral considerations – this can be divided into 2 sections
a. Morality of god sending people to hell – here you may want to read this: http://atheistforums.org/thread-32766.ht...eas+set+up
b. The things god commanded people to do – 1. Fathers selling their daughters into sexual slavery (Exodus 21: 7, 8), 2. Rape not a crime against women (Deuteronomy 22: 28, 29), 3. Parents to kill disobedient children (Deuteronomy 21: 18-21). To name a few.
At this point, a Christian might object by pointing out that this is in the Old Testament. We are now under a new dispensation of mercy and Jesus swept all that stuff away. Of course, this objection gives the lie to the idea that god is the same, yesterday, today and forever. Since Christianity cannot solve one problem without creating another, one must ask how we can look to the Bible for guidance. If rape, slavery and genocide are morally wrong, how did we get our moral sensibilities from a book that not only condones but commands these things?

(October 4, 2015 at 7:13 am)robvalue Wrote: We don't need pain if we couldn't be hurt. If I was designing some buddies and putting them in an environment of my choosing, I wouldn't make it possible for them to be hurt by anything. So no need for pain. I guess God likes the hurt and pain.

Of course, from an evolutionary point of view, pain makes perfect sense. It certainly is a bizarre phenomenon though.

That environment where nobody gets hurt is already created; it's called paradise..even mentioned in the Quran :

Sura 20
(Verse 118 )   Indeed, it is [promised] for you not to be hungry therein or be unclothed.
(Verse 119 )   And indeed, you will not be thirsty therein or be hot from the sun."
(Verse 120 )   Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?"

Yet, free will took us down to this environment, where we get hungry, we feel pain. If you are a God and chose to do what you wrote in your comment; then you're being a dictator who took free will away from his creations, and didn't see all the scenarios clearly




While in real life, God saw Satan's move, yet tested Adam & Eve against it; without being a dictator who took their free will : he let them write their own destiny. Hence; we are all Adam, we are all Eve..same genes after all.. all of us must be tested against that Satan. This is the testing ground.

You are semi correct on this. The environment where we don't feel pain comes though after we are judged.

Aractus

Weren't you James Bond a while ago ? last time I was here you had 007 in your avatar..and a Christian faith..I think that's you.

Oh well, typical "ex christian" who crossed to atheism, yet forgot to let go of the anti-Islam propaganda the local priest was feeding to him in the days of old. I just know it when you start by writing "typical Muslim".

No Mr Bond, I'm not your "typical Muslim". I'm something else.

In my comment, I said:

Quote:My memory doesn't serve me right in remembering the Bible's history

In other words : I'm not a computer.

But yet again, the forgery comes from the inside out. What you couldn't understand, is that the priests forged it. Even if the version is that ancient, Jesus's friends weren't all pure, with many traitors already in his ranks.

About the dates, maybe this will convince you :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

If the archaeological evidence is not there, -which is Jesus himself- is not found, then how should you perform an accurate historical method ?
Again, in an age where most of his followers were crucified & killed, witnessing one of the worst oppression in history, how would the traditions still be kept ?

If you try to convince me for ages, that history is accurate, I will never believe you. I saw a book not that old -Quran- going under ongoing forging attempts, whole events written by the victors -in my own lifetime-, so please, what accuracy do you speak about ?

This book is forged. A simple reading through it would prove that, with countless contradictions, accompanied by a Roman scent.

(October 4, 2015 at 2:29 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(October 4, 2015 at 7:13 am)robvalue Wrote: We don't need pain if we couldn't be hurt. If I was designing some buddies and putting them in an environment of my choosing, I wouldn't make it possible for them to be hurt by anything. So no need for pain. I guess God likes the hurt and pain.

Of course, from an evolutionary point of view, pain makes perfect sense. It certainly is a bizarre phenomenon though.

That environment where nobody gets hurt is already created; it's called paradise..even mentioned in the Quran :

Sura 20
(Verse 118 ) Indeed, it is [promised] for you not to be hungry therein or be unclothed.
(Verse 119 ) And indeed, you will not be thirsty therein or be hot from the sun."
(Verse 120 ) Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?"

Yet, free will took us down to this environment, where we get hungry, we feel pain. If you are a God and chose to do what you wrote in your comment; then you're being a dictator who took free will away from his creations, and didn't see all the scenarios clearly

---

-just like the elder God in Soul Reaver who couldn't predict Raziel's maneuver to give Kain the means to destroy the wheel of fate : "False God !"-.

---

While in real life, God saw Satan's move, yet tested Adam & Eve against it; without being a dictator who took their free will : he let them write their own destiny. Hence; we are all Adam, we are all Eve..same genes after all.. all of us must be tested against that Satan. This is the testing ground.

You are semi correct on this. The environment where we don't feel pain comes though after we are judged.

There are a number of problems here. These are, in fact, the same arguments that Christians have made about Yahweh and the Bible.

How can there be a paradise? If Allah couldn’t create a world of free will creatures without introducing hurt and pain here on Earth, then he won't be able to do it in paradise. If he can do it in paradise then he can do it here.

It's not possible for a creator god to not be a dictator. There was nothing in Adam and Eve that Allah did not create in them, even the feelings and thoughts that led them to choose Satan are of Allah's making. You will be guilty of the deadly sin of polytheism if you say Allah had a companion who created something in Adam and Eve that Allah didn't know about. So he didn't have to test them. Why then would he punish them for doing what they were created to do?

Libertarian free will defies all logic anyway. So if God exists, and he created us, then he couldn't have created us with free will.

Also, even if free will was logical, God clearly didn't give us complete freedom to do all sorts of things, so he would still be a "dictator".

Why exactly do you need horrible pain as an option to have free will? We clearly don't have totally free do-whatever will, do we? We're in fact incredibly restricted. We can't even barely move away from this tiny planet without huge effort.

We can still have free will, actually way more than we have now, just without any horrible painful options. And really, getting a disease isn't part of "free will" is it? People get born with horrific painful things. Blaming them for what previous humans have done is disgusting.

So this always happens; free will is brought up, I point out that you can have plenty of free will without the possibility of harm and hurt. Then it's something about "you can't appreciate being happy without there being sadness" and I say "if so, that's an arbitrary decision by the designer too, quit making excuses".

I can imagine, very easily, a happy, wonderful world with nothing negative in it, but which everyone has a brilliant time. With plenty of free will. Is my imagination more potent than God? How cruel to let me imagine a world more wonderful than he is able/willing to give us!

"What awesome thing do you choose to do today?"

"Oh well, I'd like bone cancer please."

"What's the matter with you? We don't have bone cancer here. You can have a short simulation of how horrible it is to have bone cancer if you really want, just press the button to return here when you've had enough of it and you'll be back and unharmed."

Then the conversation dies down, gets ignored... and repeats itself right from the start a few days later. Please quit making excuses for God. If there's pain and hurt, it's because he wants it here, by definition.