Homosexuality is not bred out of the gene pool because of kin selection; it appears to have conferred an advantage in tribal settings to have a small percentage of members of those tribes (roughly 1 in 20) who did not produce mouths-to-feed (for most of our hunter-gatherer history, food was a scarce enough commodity that it was all but impossible to support groups of larger than 200 on that system of living, due to the difficulties of overgrazing and having to move on), yet who could serve in both the child-raising role and the hunter or gatherer roles.

We saw this archetype in most of the hunter-gatherer groups observed in historical times, when "civilized" (primarily-agricultural, that is) peoples encountered those groups and sent anthropologists to study them. In Native American culture, they are called the "third gender", and were often treated as spiritually significant, like "Medicine Men" and spiritual guides of the tribe, for instance.

It is only since the advent of the Agricultural Revolution, when food became exceedingly plentiful by comparison, that the notion of "breed as much as possible" became possible, let alone advantageous.

Google the concept of "kin selection". Genetics is not a simple matter of pass-down-by-individuals, in social animals like humans, but a matter of the survival of the tribe and the family-gene-pools within it. It's why we see homosexuality in every social animal we observe. It's also why meerkats (for instance) have behaviors that seem detrimental, like the ones who stand in high, exposed places and cry out when they see an approaching predator, yet are actually survival-enhancing because the one who dies to the predator on occasion nevertheless ensures that his kin make it to their hidey-holes in time.

(October 18, 2015 at 12:03 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Drich, you're just really a woefully ignorant dick.

Concerning what?

(An unsupported accusation such as your post would be a ad hoc attack) which is an ignorant persons response to a topical conversation.

Irony anyone?

(October 18, 2015 at 1:39 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 18, 2015 at 12:03 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Drich, you're just really a woefully ignorant dick.

Concerning what?

(An unsupported accusation such as your post would be a ad hoc attack) which is an ignorant persons response to a topical conversation.

Irony anyone?

Mermaid is right you know

(October 18, 2015 at 12:36 pm)Evie Wrote: Christianity can cause bigots to attempt to justify their homophobic bigotry with biblical bullshit - and it can cause otherwise non-bigoted people to become bigoted because they believe in the bigoted statements of the bible.

Like what for instance? (I'm asking for book chapter and verse) I would also like you to define bigoted for the purpose of this conversation.

Quote:The Bible isn't just a book full of horseshit, it's a book full of potentially harmful horseshit.

those who do not know history...

Someone else who thought as you did... Adolf Hitler. He saw Christianity and the bible as a hostile message and even deemed it "hostile Christianity" verses "positive Christianity" that both supported hitler and his rule.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

Quote:Drich, I hope you wouldn't be such a homophobic bigot if you lost your faith.

I pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that you will lose your faith... if only in hope that you would then stop being such a bigot.

Sure, Christians can believe what they want generally, I don't care... I wouldn't desire them to be an atheist normally so long as it's not harming anyone. I mean it's none of my business.

But when Christians use the Bible to justify bigotry, then those fuckers I really hope lose their faith.

Dritch hopefully one day you realize that "the light" is only blinding you. There almost certainly is no God and you don't need Him to live a worthwhile life. Imagine not needing to worry about that shit anymore? Not having to care what God thinks? And not because you're turned to the dark side - but because you can feel confident that the atheist position is correct and don't have to worry anymore about stupid shit like "sin" and pleasing God. Life really is just enough without that shit.

Oh, the hypocrisy of modern douche baggery!

So let me get this straight.. You said the bible is bigoted and its message is harmful (as hitler did) you then say you don't care what Christians think so long at it does not harm people, unless what is thought comes from the bible, then it is your wish that our lives fall into calamity so as to make us loose faith in everything we believe, just so we can agree with you on this one social issue?

Do me a favor sport define Bigot for me.

Also I'd like to ask what have I said here that causes harm to homosexuals?

Lastly I'd like to ask if you know the difference between a disagreement on a social issue and hatred? You do know it is possible to disagree with people and not hate them correct?

To me hate is passifing or justifying someone when what they are doing is going to cause them long term harm, rather than confronting someone (who is seeking the truth) about their sin.

Again to do this is an act of brotherly love, not hate.

(October 18, 2015 at 2:36 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 18, 2015 at 12:36 pm)Evie Wrote: Christianity can cause bigots to attempt to justify their homophobic bigotry with biblical bullshit - and it can cause otherwise non-bigoted people to become bigoted because they believe in the bigoted statements of the bible.

Like what for instance? (I'm asking for book chapter and verse) I would also like you to define bigoted for the purpose of this conversation.

Quote:The Bible isn't just a book full of horseshit, it's a book full of potentially harmful horseshit.

those who do not know history...

Someone else who thought as you did... Adolf Hitler. He saw Christianity and the bible as a hostile message and even deemed it "hostile Christianity" verses "positive Christianity" that both supported hitler and his rule.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

Quote:Drich, I hope you wouldn't be such a homophobic bigot if you lost your faith.

I pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that you will lose your faith... if only in hope that you would then stop being such a bigot.

Sure, Christians  can believe what they want generally, I don't care... I wouldn't desire them to be an atheist normally so long as it's not harming anyone. I mean it's none of my business.

But when Christians use the Bible to justify bigotry, then those fuckers I really hope lose their faith.

Dritch hopefully one day you realize that "the light" is only blinding you. There almost certainly is no God and you don't need Him to live a worthwhile life. Imagine not needing to worry about that shit anymore? Not having to care what God thinks? And not because you're turned to the dark side - but because you can feel confident that the atheist position is correct and don't have to worry anymore about stupid shit like "sin" and pleasing God. Life really is just enough without that shit.

Oh, the hypocrisy of modern douche baggery!

So let me get this straight.. You said the bible is bigoted and its message is harmful (as hitler did) you then say you don't care what Christians think so long at it does not harm people, unless what is thought comes from the bible, then it is your wish that our lives fall into calamity so as to make us loose faith in everything we believe, just so we can agree with you on this one social issue?

Do me a favor sport define Bigot for me.

Also I'd like to ask what have I said here that causes harm to homosexuals?

Lastly I'd like to ask if you know the difference between a disagreement on a social issue and hatred? You do know it is possible to disagree with people and not hate them correct?

To me hate is passifing or justifying someone when what they are doing is going to cause them long term harm, rather than confronting someone (who is seeking the truth) about their sin.

Again to do this is an act of brotherly love, not hate.

Bigoted stances in the bible


18:22 <- ding ding ding mother fucker 
Leviticus 18:22, 12:31 <- 
33:26
vv 27-28

The bible is not historically accurate and yes the bible is horse shit. Study WW2 history christianity was the religion to unite the masses. Your religion  isn't as clean as you think. 

Hypocrisy? Hah i bet you eat shrimp and lobster don't get me started. 

(October 18, 2015 at 2:36 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 18, 2015 at 12:36 pm)Evie Wrote: Christianity can cause bigots to attempt to justify their homophobic bigotry with biblical bullshit - and it can cause otherwise non-bigoted people to become bigoted because they believe in the bigoted statements of the bible.

Like what for instance? (I'm asking for book chapter and verse) I would also like you to define bigoted for the purpose of this conversation.

Quote:The Bible isn't just a book full of horseshit, it's a book full of potentially harmful horseshit.

those who do not know history...

Someone else who thought as you did... Adolf Hitler. He saw Christianity and the bible as a hostile message and even deemed it "hostile Christianity" verses "positive Christianity" that both supported hitler and his rule.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

Quote:Drich, I hope you wouldn't be such a homophobic bigot if you lost your faith.

I pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that you will lose your faith... if only in hope that you would then stop being such a bigot.

Sure, Christians can believe what they want generally, I don't care... I wouldn't desire them to be an atheist normally so long as it's not harming anyone. I mean it's none of my business.

But when Christians use the Bible to justify bigotry, then those fuckers I really hope lose their faith.

Dritch hopefully one day you realize that "the light" is only blinding you. There almost certainly is no God and you don't need Him to live a worthwhile life. Imagine not needing to worry about that shit anymore? Not having to care what God thinks? And not because you're turned to the dark side - but because you can feel confident that the atheist position is correct and don't have to worry anymore about stupid shit like "sin" and pleasing God. Life really is just enough without that shit.

Oh, the hypocrisy of modern douche baggery!

So let me get this straight.. You said the bible is bigoted and its message is harmful (as hitler did) you then say you don't care what Christians think so long at it does not harm people, unless what is thought comes from the bible, then it is your wish that our lives fall into calamity so as to make us loose faith in everything we believe, just so we can agree with you on this one social issue?

Do me a favor sport define Bigot for me.

Also I'd like to ask what have I said here that causes harm to homosexuals?

Lastly I'd like to ask if you know the difference between a disagreement on a social issue and hatred? You do know it is possible to disagree with people and not hate them correct?

To me hate is passifing or justifying someone when what they are doing is going to cause them long term harm, rather than confronting someone (who is seeking the truth) about their sin.

Again to do this is an act of brotherly love, not hate.

We don't have to define bigot for you, it's what you are, you say what your doing "isn't hate its brotherly love" bullshit its brotherly love. People like you are the reason LGBT people commit suicide because you bully them and teach your kids to pick on them, if you really loved them you'd support them and help them with their situation, not call them faggots and demon possessed reprobates. You said Adolf Hitler saw Christianity as "hostile" I dont know if you've read Mein Kamph but Hitler says God guides him and anybody who goes against the church should be killed he also said his most ardent goal was to be a priest. German soldiers had belts that said "gott mit uns" which means God is with us in German Hitler also said we needed to fight against the atheistic agenda. If you think homosexuality goes against Gods law then you need to follow his other rules to such as, you can't shave your beard, you can't wear mixed fabrics, you can't pick up sticks on the sabbath, you must kill your kids if they talk back to you, and men must own their wife and women must be submissive to their husband.

---

Oh and one more thing Hitler used Christianity as a way to justify his antisemitism and homophobia. Hitler also signed a treaty with the Vatican, and Catholic priest would often promote Nazism and antisemitism in their sermons. So don't try to say to me "well Hitler just used Christianity as a political tool" due to what the Catholic priests did.

Drich Wrote:Like what for instance? (I'm asking for book chapter and verse) I would also like you to define bigoted for the purpose of this conversation.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigoted?s=t

Quote:Someone else who thought as you did... Adolf Hitler.

Pleased to meet you Godwin, Strawman, Ad Hominem  and Reductio ad Hitlerum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
Wow you invoke Godwin's law and lose the argument by default, and make at least 3 fallacies all at once, congratulations: Have a cookie.

Quote:He saw Christianity and the bible as a hostile message and even deemed it "hostile Christianity" verses "positive Christianity" that both supported hitler and his rule.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

Hi red herring fallacy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring
It's totally irrelevant that he did that. The Bible is full of potentially harmful shit, the fact he exploited that doesn't mean it isn't full of harmful shit anyway.

Quote:So let me get this straight.. You said the bible is bigoted and its message is harmful (as hitler did)

Well even Hitler got that part right then. Keep going with the Ad Hominems.
He just used it deliberately in a maliciously negative way with his propaganda. The Bible still IS potentially full of harmless bullshit.
Hey I'm pretty sure Hitler also believed that 2+2 = 4 just like I do does that make me wrong and like Hitler for agreeing with Hitler than 2+2=4?

Quote:you then say you don't care what Christians think so long at it does not harm people, unless what is thought comes from the bible, then it is your wish that our lives fall into calamity so as to make us loose faith in everything we believe, just so we can agree with you on this one social issue?

No I'm just saying that I hope that those who are bigoted simply because they have strongly homophobically bigoted beliefs merely because the Bible is anti-homosexuality lose their faith if that changes their bigoted view on homosexuality. If the only reason some Christians are homophobic bigots is because they believe what the Bible says about homosexuality and if they didn't believe what the Bible says then they would stop being bigoted then of course I hope they lose their faith!
If that happening reduces bigotry then it's a good thing! Less bigotry=good.

Quote:Do me a favor sport define Bigot for me.

The dictionary does that fine.

Quote:Also I'd like to ask what have I said here that causes harm to homosexuals?

I'm not saying you cause harm to homosexuals I'm saying that if you think homosexuality is unnatural and have a bigoted view of homosexuality because of what the Bible says then I hope you lose your faith if it gives you a chance to not be a homophobic bigot.

Quote:Lastly I'd like to ask if you know the difference between a disagreement on a social issue and hatred? You do know it is possible to disagree with people and not hate them correct?

Yes I know the difference and yes that is possible. Once again I'm saying that if you have a bigoted view of homosexuality because of what the bible says about homosexuality then if losing your faith is the only way to change that then I hope that happens. The less bigots the better.

Quote:To me hate is passifing or justifying someone when what they are doing is going to cause them long term harm, rather than confronting someone (who is seeking the truth) about their sin.

If you consider homosexuality is a sin and that is your motivation for thinking homosexuality is wrong then you are a homophobic bigot for biblical reasons so I hope you lose your faith so you can lose your bigotry.
If  you consider homosexuality to be wrong or unnatural then you're a bigot.

Quote:Again to do this is an act of brotherly love, not hate.

Regardless of if the motivation is intended to be love, if you think homosexuality is wrong then you're a bigot.

it seems that others have brought many proofs on biblical bigotry of homosexuality.

I'll bring you life experience.

I am very good at observing what happens to other people. I am good at being empathetic and understanding how some one feels by looking at them.

I have witnessed the harm that homophobic bigoted men do to anyone who gives off even the slightest feminine vibe.

Put yourself there Drich and watch as not just one but 3 or more (because they are too cowardice to face him alone) verbally destroy, oh wait i mean "confront" this person. Of course the victim cant fight back or if he does he faces physical harm maybe even death. There are three of them after all.

Stand there and watch as the three sense that not only are they in power but also God tells them to kill such a man. They wont do that if he's lucky. So maybe they just punch him a few times to remind him that his "choice" of homosexuality is the wrong one. They will probably be praised for their actions. (that's when i stepped in and stopped it and made some enemies).

Their pastors teach of the "sin" of homosexuality to an already homophobic group. This fuels their desire to do harm in the name of God. This is what i have seen personally. It is deplorable.

I have not born witness to this next scenario but others have...you are there right after the gay teen has hung himself. He has befallen the attacks from these "righteous" Christian boys. If you believe in Heaven and Hell then you may see his soul sinking into the depths on his way to hell.

Would you stand there and tell this soul "see you should have not been gay." and feel no guilt no remorse at what drove him to kill himself?

There's no science in this. It's what happens to real people in real life. You would support this because God says so?

I don't think you sir would support this. I honestly don't think you are that type of person. Still think on this... if you could stop this scenario from happening would you? Do you think that living by the bible's standards allows for any other way but this violence? You may not be one of those three (abusive boys) but you know that they are out there. How are you going to spread God's "love" and not kindle the homophobic fire?

I try and encourage homophobic people to imagine what their life would be like if they were gay, and people were acting this way towards them.

The problem with many religious views like "being gay is wrong" is that it is a gargantuan oversimplification. To understand homosexuality properly takes a lot of study. To even gain a working knowledge of it takes at least a little hard work and open mindedness. It's much quicker and easier to adopt black and white thinking, which just happens to correlate with your doctrine. It's the same with morality; you can study how morality came to be, or you can say, "Don't care, too complicated, it's magic."

Staying ignorant keeps ridiculous opinions like "It's a choice" going, too. Not that this would be justification for homophobia, even if it was true.

Religion often reduces a vast, complex, intricate universe to a one dimensional narrative. It loses almost everything in the transition.

(October 18, 2015 at 1:38 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Homosexuality is not bred out of the gene pool because of kin selection; it appears to have conferred an advantage in tribal settings to have a small percentage of members of those tribes (roughly 1 in 20) who did not produce mouths-to-feed (for most of our hunter-gatherer history, food was a scarce enough commodity that it was all but impossible to support groups of larger than 200 on that system of living, due to the difficulties of overgrazing and having to move on), yet who could serve in both the child-raising role and the hunter or gatherer roles.

We saw this archetype in most of the hunter-gatherer groups observed in historical times, when "civilized" (primarily-agricultural, that is) peoples encountered those groups and sent anthropologists to study them. In Native American culture, they are called the "third gender", and were often treated as spiritually significant, like "Medicine Men" and spiritual guides of the tribe, for instance.

It is only since the advent of the Agricultural Revolution, when food became exceedingly plentiful by comparison, that the notion of "breed as much as possible" became possible, let alone advantageous.

Google the concept of "kin selection". Genetics is not a simple matter of pass-down-by-individuals, in social animals like humans, but a matter of the survival of the tribe and the family-gene-pools within it. It's why we see homosexuality in every social animal we observe. It's also why meerkats (for instance) have behaviors that seem detrimental, like the ones who stand in high, exposed places and cry out when they see an approaching predator, yet are actually survival-enhancing because the one who dies to the predator on occasion nevertheless ensures that his kin make it to their hidey-holes in time.

This.. 'explanation' would only work is a social communal setting where the homosexuals creatures were still having hetrosexual sex. which deletes the idea of the 'pure homosexual' (who can not supposedly be aroused by the opposite sex) Otherwise the 'gay gene' (if it truly ever existed) would have been bred out of the gene pool (Per Darwin's theory not mine) a few dozen generations ago. Why? Because if the gay monkeys gay people descended from could not reproduce/Could not be aroused by the opposite sex) then their pure gay gene died with them, no matter how useful they were to the non gay monkey men. Which means that your 'explanation' then becomes a social/psychological Choice and not one genetically programed in. (Monkeys had gay sex because it was fun for that particular monkey, and not because it 'had to.')

A good example that dispels your explanation would be all the supposedly gay animals who do not commune in herds or packs/families (as your explanation demands for it's validation.)  The fact that non social creatures(One who does not live in any of the social structures you described) who still have homosexual tendencies proves that those animals simply chose to have sex with what they wanted, because it is pleasurable to them, yet could serve no purpose, or rather had no influence on the genetic make up of the species as a whole.

Because again if they were genetically hardwired to only find the same sex attractive their genetics would die with them in just a few generations, million of years ago. That would mean a pair of gay birds, or lions, wolves, ect are not examples of a species propagating the illusive 'gay gene', but the opposite. The prove that gay animals have sex because they chose to have gay sex for whatever reason. The same holds true with social creatures as well. Again, even if they help the group survive, they themselves would not be able to reproduce the prominent gene that makes a creature gay. Which again over time/Millions of years this trait would be bred out of the gene pool.

Maybe that is why genetic science make no claims to "Coming closer to finding the gay gene" And it maybe also why "psychologists/sociologists" seem to be the only ones making those claims. Or so goes my last 3 google searches