(October 30, 2015 at 1:51 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 10:30 am)Irrational Wrote: 1A. Exaggeration is still based on some truth.
1B. You'd need people to care enough to see his naked body.



Perhaps he enjoyed certain forms of punishments but not others.

1B.
Why would you need to see his naked body?
 I pretty sure when he was beaten, stoned, caned, flogged, the damage could be seen by just looking at him. it wasn't like the only hit him in his 'private parts.'

2. Perhaps he like everyone else would avoid any near death beating if and when they can

Well, I see you have him all figured out.

(October 30, 2015 at 10:23 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Do you mean the evidence that scientist observe and tell me about?   If you discount observation and testimony as evidence, then I don't believe that science has any evidence either.  There are a great number of things in science, that I have to rely on the observation and accounting of others as evidence.  And while a subjective judgment some of them may be found difficult to believe.  

So I would feel equally justified in saying that there is no evidence for evolution if you are able to use this method to say the same of Christianity.  I don't believe this is correct.  Now if you have actual evidence against or reasons to believe it is untrue, we can discuss it. Even bad evidence is still evidence. And if you are going to make a claim, then the burden of proof is on you to support it.

Bullshit. I have to conclude at this point that you're intentionally being intellectually dishonest. Scientific observations can be replicated; whereas, the happy horseshit in The Bible can't. If you honestly don't understand the difference there is no helping you.

(October 30, 2015 at 10:59 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Paul was a convert to Christianity, via "vision".

After which could perform the same miracles as the remaining 12. His conversion, and subsequent messages were 'proven' to be legit because God worked many miracles through Paul.

Quote: He was their first highly-successful convert to become an evangelist.

Again if you ask yourself why, his ablities to work miracles and his ultimate acceptance by the 12 were the reasons for his success.

Quote:The fact that he was convinced by his vision and communication with the early Christians is more than enough reason for him to decide to subject himself to various torments -- the evidence is quite clear that the early Christians considered suffering to be a good thing, a method of following in the footsteps of the man they called the Christ.

Suffering or rather knowing how to suffer and not loose one's mind/faith is a good thing, but so is knowing how life in wealth without being consumed by money or greed. Paul in his writting advocated both, and taught how to live both. Balance was always at the center of his teachings even if most people only want to look at the suffering.

Quote:This willingness to suffer for their message is certainly not evidence that any of them were correct, not any more than it is for the early Mormons or any other religious cult, or that their narrative successfully reflects the reality of Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef of Nazareth, when it was written down 20+ years after-the-fact. One decade is more than enough time for a legend to grow to mythical proportions.

Willingness to suffer is proof what a person believes. One has to look at the specifics of belief to validate those beliefs. You can't honestly dismiss all who suffer for their beliefs with a broad brush just because one belief is found to be wrong. Their is a vast difference for suffering out of blind faith, and suffering because you personally witnessed something miraclous and will not be moved or influenced in changing your story.

Paul's suffering is a testament to his orgins/conversion to his miracles, to his doctrine. He believe he brought the word of God because he was blessed in such a way that in that time only God could have blessed him. So he stood behind everything he taught with his fullest conviction because everything he witnessed and was able to do in life supported his understanding of who God was and what God wanted from all of us.

(October 30, 2015 at 2:17 pm)Drich Wrote: Willingness to suffer is proof what a person believes. One has to look at the specifics of belief to validate those beliefs. You can't honestly dismiss all who suffer for their beliefs with a broad brush just because one belief is found to be wrong. Their is a vast difference for suffering out of blind faith, and suffering because you personally witnessed something miraclous and will not be moved or influenced in changing your story.

Paul's suffering is a testament to his orgins/conversion to his miracles, to his doctrine. He believe he brought the word of God because he was blessed in such a way that in that time only God could have blessed him. So he stood behind everything he taught with his fullest conviction because everything he witnessed and was able to do in life supported his understanding of who God was and what God wanted from all of us.

Too much special pleading here.

(October 30, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 1:51 pm)Drich Wrote: 1B.
Why would you need to see his naked body?
 I pretty sure when he was beaten, stoned, caned, flogged, the damage could be seen by just looking at him. it wasn't like the only hit him in his 'private parts.'

2. Perhaps he like everyone else would avoid any near death beating if and when they can

Well, I see you have him all figured out.

I would say more so (Having Paul figured out) than someone who is simply interjecting random possiblities that do not account for any of the written record on who this man was or what he was about, in a half hearted effort to dismiss him.

Again, you dismissal of the physical punishment he endured does not account for the scaring and disfigurment he would have under gone if the reports of his beatings were true. (Again no plastic surgery, meaning if someone broke your nose you went around with a mangled nose the rest of your life) Paul being beaten as he describes left terrible disfiguring scars simply because they could not treat the wounds as we can.

Secondly You calling Paul a masochist does not account for his ablity for living well/under great ease and wealth. Paul knew how to live in times of persecution as well in times of great ease without it changing who he was. Most of us today can not say this. yet this is what he taught and want all of us to be ready for, because life can get away from us either in great wealth or times of great hardship.

(October 30, 2015 at 2:19 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 2:17 pm)Drich Wrote: Willingness to suffer is proof what a person believes. One has to look at the specifics of belief to validate those beliefs. You can't honestly dismiss all who suffer for their beliefs with a broad brush just because one belief is found to be wrong. Their is a vast difference for suffering out of blind faith, and suffering because you personally witnessed something miraclous and will not be moved or influenced in changing your story.

Paul's suffering is a testament to his orgins/conversion to his miracles, to his doctrine. He believe he brought the word of God because he was blessed in such a way that in that time only God could have blessed him. So he stood behind everything he taught with his fullest conviction because everything he witnessed and was able to do in life supported his understanding of who God was and what God wanted from all of us.

Too much special pleading here.

define 'special pleading', and apply it to what I've written.

Because the defination I use does not apply to what I've written.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

(October 30, 2015 at 2:26 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Irrational Wrote: Well, I see you have him all figured out.

I would say more so (Having Paul figured out) than someone who is simply interjecting random possiblities that do not account for any of the written record on who this man was or what he was about, in a half hearted effort to dismiss him.

Again, you dismissal of the physical punishment he endured does not account for the scaring and disfigurment he would have under gone if the reports of his beatings were true. (Again no plastic surgery, meaning if someone broke your nose you went around with a mangled nose the rest of your life) Paul being beaten as he describes left terrible disfiguring scars simply because they could not treat the wounds as we can.

Secondly You calling Paul a masochist does not account for his ablity for living well/under great ease and wealth. Paul knew how to live in times of persecution as well in times of great ease without it changing who he was. Most of us today can not say this. yet this is what he taught and want all of us to be ready for, because life can get away from us either in great wealth or times of great hardship.

Reason I'm not being too serious here is because I realize one can't always be confident in conclusions made about something a man 2000 years ago went through based on his own words and from a source that can't be 100% trusted.

Sometimes it's better to be agnostic and not jump into hasty conclusions. You need to account for the fact that people can lie, exaggerate, confabulate, be deluded, be crafty with their words, say things knowing no one would probably bother to challenge him on it. We have a lot of Pauls in this day and age as well, but you think he was one of a kind because you share the same faith he did.

Special Pleading: When everyone else who ever claimed to be a Prophet (like, say Joseph Smith or David Koresh) or other "chosen one" (for whatever other woo-woo we're discussing), they were all false, and the people who believed them were idiots taken in by a charlatan...

...but not Paul! He did miracles! He's not like those other charlatans that other people believed, in all those other religions I don't agree with!

(October 30, 2015 at 1:57 pm)robvalue Wrote: Go to 2:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLUF1leMF0

...and???

(Let me restate more properly: there is no good evidence that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses.)