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(December 13, 2015 at 5:34 pm)Strider Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 4:48 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Shortest life expectancy? What??

Yeah, exactly. This is why I hate memes...especially ones with bullshit masquerading as facts.

America has its share of problems, but it's not the worst country in the world and the cause of seemingly all global issues as the most extreme leftist/progressives seem to believe.

Funny you should claim to hate bullshit masquerading as facts.

(December 13, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 4:48 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Shortest life expectancy? What??

I can't make out the writing at the bottom but I suspect that meme is not comparing the US to the "world" but rather other industrialized nations.... of which we are supposed to be one.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/01...e-j11.html

Quote:US life expectancy lowest among industrialized countries

I mean, if your goal is merely to not be "last" among countries such as Mali and Chad then congratulations.  But, I would not use the term "greatest" for that achievement.

Yeah, when you cherry pick attributes and compare it to a tiny collection of western European countries and Australia it isn't 'the greatest'. People don't even know what the fuck they are talking about when they say industrialized countries though. As countries like Chile and Argentina aren't industrialized.

Edit: Or how is Russia not industrialized?? It's one of the G8 countries.

(December 13, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 4:48 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Shortest life expectancy? What??

I can't make out the writing at the bottom but I suspect that meme is not comparing the US to the "world" but rather other industrialized nations.... of which we are supposed to be one.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/01...e-j11.html

Quote:US life expectancy lowest among industrialized countries

I mean, if your goal is merely to not be "last" among countries such as Mali and Chad then congratulations.  But, I would not use the term "greatest" for that achievement.

If you think that the only countries in the world are western Europe, the US, Japan and pretty much everything else is like Chad and Mali, then I really don't know what to say. It's just not how reality is.

(December 13, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 2:07 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Perhaps you should answer his point?  Part of Original Sin -- our "fallen state" -- is death. As your own catechism states, Original Sin is not an act but rather a condition. It is clear that if your god wanted to do so, he could heal humankind of this fallen state (as you believe he did with Mary). The fact is that you believe your god himself invented death -- when he had the power to instead impart immortality. To then turn around and protest someone's hypothetical wish for the death of others even as you worship the Author of Death is the weakness his point is aimed at.

I believe that to God, no one is "innocent" only in the sense that no one is perfect. Even the best of us have all done things that are wrong at some point in our lives. That is what that means. But it does not apply in the context of the discussion we are having, or in the context that I used the word "innocent" when I was talking about people who own guns and who are not criminals nor have harmed anyone with them. So when someone talks about wanting every gun owner to get killed by getting shot, I use the word "innocent" to describe them in the sense that they are not criminals deserving of a death sentence merely because they have a gun.

As for the story of Eve eating the apple, I've talked many times about how neither me nor the majority of Catholics see this story as a literal one. It's more a symbolism of human sin, free will, and the fact that none of us is perfect and will inevitably do things wrong sometimes.

You're not answering the point that no matter whether you conceive of Eve's story literally or symbolically, the upshot is that you worship a god who invented death, a god who kills paoled for the flawed human nature that he himself created.

Quote:Yeah, when you cherry pick attributes and compare it to a tiny collection of western European countries and Australia it isn't 'the greatest'.

I'm sure Japan, China and South Korea are on the list...but that's okay.  If you want to think that every thing is fine and dandy then you go stand there and chant "We're #1" until you are blue in the face for all I care.

(December 13, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: I

(December 13, 2015 at 5:34 pm)Strider Wrote: Yeah, exactly. This is why I hate memes...especially ones with bullshit masquerading as facts.

America has its share of problems, but it's not the worst country in the world and the cause of seemingly all global issues as the most extreme leftist/progressives seem to believe.

Funny you should claim to hate bullshit masquerading as facts.

And why is that? I stated nothing as fact. I said "as the most extreme leftist/progressives seem to believe". It should be obvious from my choice of wording that is my subjective opinion and is not being stated as fact.

(December 13, 2015 at 3:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 3:05 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: So is being of or from god something which exists in pleasant psychological states, being what they are like?  Do you believe God can and does literally take the form of a human-like subject?  Is there anything which God, as you understand it, is apart from the way we experience it?  

I guess you know by now I think that God can seem as real to a person as they are themselves, and that is because I think both personal identity and god identity are the product of the human mind.  Neither we nor god have any existence outside lived experience, but that doesn't mean that those who believe should be rid of belief in God any more than they should try to transcend belief in themselves as persons.  

If it is any comfort, I think that God is usually experienced as encompassing a greater portion of ones total being.  Furthermore, those of us who reject any gods in all forms don't always succeed in creating an alternative 'channel' for accessing that greater self.  (But it isn't impossible.)

Yes, I have definitely gathered that you take this approach. I think it's interesting. It kind of reminds me of that Wait But Why article I posted several months ago where the atheist author talks about reaching a "higher being", though he's talking about ourselves just reaching a greater understanding and overcoming our animal instincts to become something greater.  

And if we look at it that way, it's like mine and your beliefs are really not that different in their most basic, human level. We just have a different way of looking at it and/or of reaching that similar conclusion. 

As for your questions above, another fellow Catholic described God in an interesting way: 

Think of God as being a beautiful crystal vase. It falls and shatters into trillions of tiny little pieces. And each one of us has that little piece of Him within us. So when we see a lot of good in someone else, like, when we fall in love or when we have a child, we have that overwhelming feeling of love and adoration for them. That is because we are subconsciously seeing a little piece of God in that person. And that is only a "preview" of what God looks like and what it'll feel like to be with Him.

Catholics are so funny. Catholics today would vehemently argue with Catholics pre-Vatican two who had such a different and I would argue, more biblical view of God.

(December 13, 2015 at 8:03 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I believe that to God, no one is "innocent" only in the sense that no one is perfect. Even the best of us have all done things that are wrong at some point in our lives. That is what that means. But it does not apply in the context of the discussion we are having, or in the context that I used the word "innocent" when I was talking about people who own guns and who are not criminals nor have harmed anyone with them. So when someone talks about wanting every gun owner to get killed by getting shot, I use the word "innocent" to describe them in the sense that they are not criminals deserving of a death sentence merely because they have a gun.  

As for the story of Eve eating the apple, I've talked many times about how neither me nor the majority of Catholics see this story as a literal one. It's more a symbolism of human sin, free will, and the fact that none of us is perfect and will inevitably do things wrong sometimes.

You're not answering the point that no matter whether you conceive of Eve's story literally or symbolically, the upshot is that you worship a god who invented death, a god who kills paoled for the flawed human nature that he himself created.

I believe I have since addressed this when I think HN made it more clear. But you are correct, I initially did not realize that's what you guys were trying to say. My apologies.

(December 13, 2015 at 8:43 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 3:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, I have definitely gathered that you take this approach. I think it's interesting. It kind of reminds me of that Wait But Why article I posted several months ago where the atheist author talks about reaching a "higher being", though he's talking about ourselves just reaching a greater understanding and overcoming our animal instincts to become something greater.  

And if we look at it that way, it's like mine and your beliefs are really not that different in their most basic, human level. We just have a different way of looking at it and/or of reaching that similar conclusion. 

As for your questions above, another fellow Catholic described God in an interesting way: 

Think of God as being a beautiful crystal vase. It falls and shatters into trillions of tiny little pieces. And each one of us has that little piece of Him within us. So when we see a lot of good in someone else, like, when we fall in love or when we have a child, we have that overwhelming feeling of love and adoration for them. That is because we are subconsciously seeing a little piece of God in that person. And that is only a "preview" of what God looks like and what it'll feel like to be with Him.

Catholics are so funny. Catholics today would vehemently argue with Catholics pre-Vatican two who had such a different and I would argue, more biblical view of God.

There are still a small group of people who don't agree with the new approach brought on by Vatican II. They are SSPX and identify as "traditional Catholics." I have never met any though, and that's probably a good thing. I don't think they would like me very much. They're probably the type of Catholics who can't stand Pope Francis.

(December 13, 2015 at 9:15 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 8:43 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Catholics are so funny. Catholics today would vehemently argue with Catholics pre-Vatican two who had such a different and I would argue, more biblical view of God.

There are still a small group of people who don't agree with the new approach brought on by Vatican II. They are SSPX and identify as "traditional Catholics." I have never met any though, and that's probably a good thing. I don't think they would like me very much. They're probably the type of Catholics who can't stand Pope Francis.

Yeah, but that's the ironic thing, Vatican II is new. My parents are older than it is. Yet it rejects more than a thousand years of Church tradition that Catholics died and killed over for generations. I don't know how anyone can take a group like the Catholics (or Mormons) seriously when they believe the unerring word of god is actually totally malleable when it is politically inconvenient or threatens declining Church numbers. I've always suspected the upper members in the Church are a bunch of Atheists, it seems like they don't even believe their own teachings half the time.