Yes Orange, it -would- be absurd to stand in judgement of a being with no free will....................relay that groundbreaker to your god, for me?

(December 30, 2015 at 6:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Yes Orange, it -would- be absurd to stand in judgement of a being with no free will....................relay that groundbreaker to your god, for me?

The God I serve created you in His image. "Free-will" included.

Too bad you can't demonstrate that, eh, lol? Hey, while we're on subject, I have a similar agreement with one of your co-believers, perhaps you'd be willing to negotiate. I'll consider -you- one of his people, created in his image, if you allow that I am not. Besides, do you want me to be somehow informative as to the nature of a god? Is there a little Rhythm in the Lord?

Deal?

I don't have one of these "free will" things, it's not even possible for me to have one. So some part of your statement must be untrue. Side with my creation as the false bit and you can salvage your free will, and your god.

Just to clarify, I'm not claiming we do or we don't actually "make choices", whatever that may mean. It may well be an unfalsifiable proposition, although if anything the evidence seems to point more and more towards our perceived choices being different from our actual choices (if any). We delude ourselves regarding our own choices.

I'm just saying that the phrase "free will" is a shifty, slippery term which does more to confuse the issue than resolve it, in my opinion.

(December 30, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Too bad you can't demonstrate that, eh, lol?

 
What have we been doing the past couple of pages?

(December 30, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Hey, while we're on subject, I have a similar agreement with one of your co-believers, perhaps you'd be willing to negotiate.  I'll consider -you- one of his people, created in his image, if you allow that I am not.

No deal.

(December 30, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Besides, do you want me to be somehow informative as to the nature of a god?  Is there a little Rhythm in the Lord?

 
Regardless of what I want, you are in fact informative as to the nature of God.  Although it's not that there's a little Rhythm in the Lord, but rather there's a reflection of the Lord in the Rhythm.

(December 30, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I don't have one of these "free will" things, it's not even possible for me to have one.  So some part of your statement must be untrue.  Side with my creation as the false bit and you can salvage your free will, and your god.  

Well of course you'd say that, you can't say anything to the contrary.  Everything you say and everything you do is completely out of your control.  Let me know how that works out for you when a police officer pulls you over for speeding  

(December 30, 2015 at 7:42 pm)robvalue Wrote: Just to clarify, I'm not claiming we do or we don't actually "make choices", whatever that may mean. It may well be an unfalsifiable proposition, although if anything the evidence seems to point more and more towards our perceived choices being different from our actual choices (if any). We delude ourselves regarding our own choices.

Are you deluded now?  

(December 30, 2015 at 7:42 pm)robvalue Wrote: I'm just saying that the phrase "free will" is a shifty, slippery term which does more to confuse the issue than resolve it, in my opinion.

(December 30, 2015 at 7:42 pm)robvalue Wrote: we should just stick to the verifiable science.

I think you should heed your own advice.  Then again given you can't scientifically verify the statement "we should just stick to the verifiable science" it would be impossible for you to heed your own advice.  

(December 30, 2015 at 9:11 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:  
What have we been doing the past couple of pages?

IDK.  Hopefully you don't think that you've been demonstrating that I am created by the lord in his image.  That would be sad.  

Quote:No deal.

Hmn, it was worth a try.  Now you know that it doesn't matter whether you make the deal or not, your god didn't create me, right?  I'm an evolved creature, not a created exhibit.  This is demonstrable.
 

Quote:Regardless of what I want, you are in fact informative as to the nature of God.  Although it's not that there's a little Rhythm in the Lord, but rather there's a reflection of the Lord in the Rhythm.

Neither prospect is very flattering for the Lord, in my opinion.  

Quote:Well of course you'd say that, you can't say anything to the contrary.

Exactly.

Quote:Everything you say and everything you do is completely out of your control.  Let me know how that works out for you when a police officer pulls you over for speeding  

I thought we were discussing free will...whats all this business about legality all of a sudden?  Isn't it interesting that speeders are, statistically, more likely to be repeat offenders?

(December 30, 2015 at 9:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Hmn, it was worth a try.  Now you know that it doesn't matter whether you make the deal or not, your god didn't create me, right?  I'm an evolved creature, not a created exhibit.  This is demonstrable.

You mean you were predetermined to believe that you're an evolved creature not a created exhibit.  There is no truth value to the statement in a deterministic worldview.

(December 30, 2015 at 9:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I thought we were discussing free will...whats all this business about legality all of a sudden?  Isn't it interesting that speeders are, statistically, more likely to be repeat offenders?

What's equally interesting is why in a deterministic worldview a person isn't either always an offender or never an offender?

(December 30, 2015 at 7:28 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:

(December 30, 2015 at 6:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Yes Orange, it -would- be absurd to stand in judgement of a being with no free will....................relay that groundbreaker to your god, for me?

The God I serve created you in His image.  "Free-will" included.

Is >"YOUR"< god >"ALL"< knowing?

(December 28, 2015 at 4:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Both.  I'm not responsible for the choices I don't or can't make, I am responsible for the choices I do make.  What I'm trying to show here is that to blame God for the immoral things I do is a conflation of the issues. The two questions facing us are:  Am I responsible for my choices?  Is God responsible for not enlarging my set of choices?  To conclude that I am not responsible for my choices because God does not enlarge my set of choices is a conflation.

Free will is a person's ability to make choices consistent with his/her nature.

Well, the constraint answer makes sense. So long as God is giving people the ability to do "maximal" good, and we're all falling short, then I don't think there would be any blame to God for us not doing as much good as "possible". If God is holding back, even a little, then some of that blame would fall on him (I know you address this later).

(December 28, 2015 at 4:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Here's where I'll probably get into trouble by offending the majority of readers (Christians included).  I hope each readers emotions do not over ride the explanation.

The answer to that question is found in Romans 9

Yeah, most non-Calvinist Christians I know tend to shy away from Romans 9.

(December 28, 2015 at 4:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Reading verses 15-18 should lead a person to ask the question in verse 19, "How can He blame us, for who can resist His will?  

The answer is found in verses 20-24.

Two things to take away from this.  First, these are questions of authority.  Who get's the right to decide how something is used?  The maker or the made?  Secondly, it appears God's reason for functioning this way is to demonstrate His wrath, make His power known, and to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy.

Personally, I feel this answer is a bit of a cop out. Now, it might be consistent with what you were saying about both God and us being responsible for doing good, but it still (potentially) results in a situation where God isn't allowing as much good as he could. Saying "who are you to question me!?" is just a misdirection at that point. About the best counter I can see to that would be to assert that God works in [mysterious ways] and that his reasons for holding back are actually more good, and we just don't see it (basically, the Best of all Possible Worlds defense). This, strictly speaking, could be true, but the reasoning is entirely ad hoc. Basically, the answer satisfies the apologist, but not the skeptic.


Anyway, I think you explained your position a lot better now, and it makes sense (well, as much sense as it's going to make to a dirty heathen). Thanks for clarifying. Happy New Year!

(December 30, 2015 at 7:28 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:

(December 30, 2015 at 6:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Yes Orange, it -would- be absurd to stand in judgement of a being with no free will....................relay that groundbreaker to your god, for me?

The God I serve created you in His image.  "Free-will" included.

When Jesus returns he's going to kill all life and destroy the world.  Since you serve him are you looking forward to help him kill all life on Earth?