If the source of morality is from God, then how can we directly and comprehensively study it so that we can know all about what is morally right and what is morally wrong?

I believe as human beings, we all have the capability of choosing to do 'bad' things vs 'good' things. Morality is subjective to me. I've had disagreements with other theists over this, actually, because many believe that morality is always objective. That God is the source of morality. This may be so, I look to God as a guide for my life, but still...it is up to me to make a good or bad choice. A choice to help someone or hurt someone. This is why we see Christian bigots, and atheist philanthropists, because morality is subjective, and just because someone believes in a deity, doesn't mean that he/she will make anymore moral decisions, than a non-believer. Plus, morality being subjective means that what I deem moral, another might not...and vice versa.

(January 5, 2016 at 10:04 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I believe as human beings, we all have the capability of choosing to do 'bad' things vs 'good' things. Morality is subjective to me. I've had disagreements with other theists over this, actually, because many believe that morality is always objective. That God is the source of morality. This may be so, I look to God as a guide for my life, but still...it is up to me to make a good or bad choice. A choice to help someone or hurt someone. This is why we see Christian bigots, and atheist philanthropists, because morality is subjective, and just because someone believes in a deity, doesn't mean that he/she will make anymore moral decisions, than a non-believer. Plus, morality being subjective means that what I deem moral, another might not...and vice versa.

Fair enough. I guess this is more a question for theists who believe morality is from God. But it's good to see you have your own view (and a better one at that) than what theists generally believe regarding morality.

(January 5, 2016 at 9:47 pm)Irrational Wrote: If the source of morality is from God, then how can we directly and comprehensively study it so that we can know all about what is morally right and what is morally wrong?

Only through a Guide appointed by him, a leader, one who lights the way. Otherwise, we know very little, just some basics, with a lot of subjective viewpoint from our own thinking as well as society.

The Guide is either apparent or hidden. Today I believe he is hidden. The way to access him is to turn to God frequently until he guides you to the Guide who guides you upon the way, and reveals good acts.

There is an objective way to act on the journey. In higher levels, sometimes, we can fall and destroy ourselves very easily without this guidance. There is an etiquette to follow.

And to make to the next step when in higher path, you need the guide to show and make you take that next state, whole new state, whole new level.

(January 5, 2016 at 10:36 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(January 5, 2016 at 10:04 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I believe as human beings, we all have the capability of choosing to do 'bad' things vs 'good' things. Morality is subjective to me. I've had disagreements with other theists over this, actually, because many believe that morality is always objective. That God is the source of morality. This may be so, I look to God as a guide for my life, but still...it is up to me to make a good or bad choice. A choice to help someone or hurt someone. This is why we see Christian bigots, and atheist philanthropists, because morality is subjective, and just because someone believes in a deity, doesn't mean that he/she will make anymore moral decisions, than a non-believer. Plus, morality being subjective means that what I deem moral, another might not...and vice versa.

Fair enough. I guess this is more a question for theists who believe morality is from God. But it's good to see you have your own view (and a better one at that) than what theists generally believe regarding morality.

It sometimes isn't always easy however, reconciling for lack of a better word, my own worldviews, my own sense of morality...with some of what the Bible proposes. But, having come back to faith, it seems likely that compassion and so on is what we should all strive for, more so than condemning people who aren't following a certain 'brand' of morality. Christianity has so many sects, too...you could put 500 Christians in a room, and all 500 of us will disagree as to what morality means. lol I have a friend who used to be a Jehovah's Witness and she would tell me how strict the moral 'code' was for them, which just struck me as stifling, and really not very freeing. (no offense to JW's, but just giving an example of how far reaching it all can go, when it comes to religious interpretations of morality)

(January 5, 2016 at 10:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Only through a Guide appointed by him, a leader, one who lights the way. Otherwise, we know very little, just some basics, with a lot of subjective viewpoint from our own thinking as well as society.

The Guide is either apparent or hidden. Today I believe he is hidden. The way to access him is to turn to God frequently until he guides you to the Guide who guides you upon the way, and reveals good acts.

There is an objective way to act on the journey. In higher levels, sometimes, we can fall and destroy ourselves very easily without this guidance. There is an etiquette to follow.

And to make to the next step when in higher path, you need the guide to show and make you take that next state, whole new state, whole new level.

(January 5, 2016 at 10:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 5, 2016 at 9:47 pm)Irrational Wrote: If the source of morality is from God, then how can we directly and comprehensively study it so that we can know all about what is morally right and what is morally wrong?

Only through a Guide appointed by him, a leader, one who lights the way. Otherwise, we know very little, just some basics, with a lot of subjective viewpoint from our own thinking as well as society.

The Guide is either apparent or hidden. Today I believe he is hidden. The way to access him is to turn to God frequently until he guides you to the Guide who guides you upon the way, and reveals good acts.

There is an objective way to act on the journey. In higher levels, sometimes, we can fall and destroy ourselves very easily without this guidance. There is an etiquette to follow.

And to make to the next step when in higher path, you need the guide to show and make you take that next state, whole new state, whole new level.

So, according to you, God's morality is real but normally inaccessible. How is this practically different from God's morality not being real and morality instead being fully determined by our viewpoints?

(January 5, 2016 at 11:22 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(January 5, 2016 at 10:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Only through a Guide appointed by him, a leader, one who lights the way. Otherwise, we know very little, just some basics, with a lot of subjective viewpoint from our own thinking as well as society.

The Guide is either apparent or hidden. Today I believe he is hidden. The way to access him is to turn to God frequently until he guides you to the Guide who guides you upon the way, and reveals good acts.

There is an objective way to act on the journey. In higher levels, sometimes, we can fall and destroy ourselves very easily without this guidance. There is an etiquette to follow.

And to make to the next step when in higher path, you need the guide to show and make you take that next state, whole new state, whole new level.

So, according to you, God's morality is real but normally inaccessible. How is this practically different from God's morality not being real and morality instead being fully determined by our viewpoints?

I don't believe subjective morality or objective morality can have any reality without God's existence, so I won't answer it the way you want.

I will say the difference in between being guided by a Guide and following your own opinions and perceptions, is so vastly different. One sees the truth and is guided by it, while the other is far away from the light, looking at it from a distance, making judgments with ignorance, mixing his perception of light with his desires, creating his own sense of beauty of self, without much thought of it's ugly aspects, thereby corrupting it. One is the way that leads to drink of peace and satisfies the thirst, while the latter, without a guide, leaves one thirsty, not knowing how the true river tastes like.

There is no comparison in following one's desires then being guided upon the path through the light of the Guide.

And mixing truth with falsehood, good with evil, is much different then purely following the light, and purifying oneself from all evils.

(January 5, 2016 at 10:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 5, 2016 at 9:47 pm)Irrational Wrote: If the source of morality is from God, then how can we directly and comprehensively study it so that we can know all about what is morally right and what is morally wrong?

Only through a Guide appointed by him, a leader, one who lights the way. Otherwise, we know very little, just some basics, with a lot of subjective viewpoint from our own thinking as well as society.

The Guide is either apparent or hidden. Today I believe he is hidden. The way to access him is to turn to God frequently until he guides you to the Guide who guides you upon the way, and reveals good acts.

There is an objective way to act on the journey. In higher levels, sometimes, we can fall and destroy ourselves very easily without this guidance. There is an etiquette to follow.

And to make to the next step when in higher path, you need the guide to show and make you take that next state, whole new state, whole new level.

Wow, that's just amazing that one can write out the above, look it over, and not cringe. Do you really believe that blather?

IF there is a guide, and he is hiding, and still it is your responsibility to seek him out, then how do you know when you've actually found him? I know that when a theist says "turn to him" that usually means prayer, but if your prayers result in no resolution, then what do you do? You may blame yourself for not doing it right, and you will have no trouble enlisting others to tell you the same, but who is really qualified, and where is it written down just how exactly to appeal to your god? This cannot be any easier when you have doubts on his very existence, which would be for good reason when he never speaks back to you. If you do get answers, then this is where you should really be careful - how do you know it wasn't just your own mind reflecting back at you while your hands were folded (or whatever it is you do while praying), and that it wasn't necessarily the purest part your mind which took the lead?

Why do you really feel the need to put so much stock in any sort of "objective" way as guidance? Are you still a child that you need a parent to decide for you the difference between right and wrong? If you are a normal adult, then you shouldn't have any problems with your own subjective conscience working cohesively in a functioning society. AND, you are afraid of society, as you were taught to fear it by those who programmed your mind when it was very young to heed only them, who you were made to trust had a direct line to the best sources of all that is good and right. Truth is that society exists because most of us want it, and most of us want it because we basically think alike (therefore we want it). Problems happen when groups create needless causes of division among those who must share a society, many who decide they don't have to share it with the "heathen" or "infidels" or worse, and so they won't. So if you want peace, you need to discover the truth of human nature, by allowing yourself to discover how true it is that the majority of us make as much right in our world as possible, practice as much altruism as is possible, and love as much as is possible. We do this by nature, not by objective standards. The idea of non-subjectivity in rules written by fellow mortal humans (no evidence exists for anyone standing above us) is pointlessly fantastical anyway, while the idea that instructions for those who aren't normal human beings will change them is foolishly naive. Anyway, those who follow the words of and live according to the mandates of goat-herders or camel-drivers will be living all too much the backward life of the same. Chances are your own ideas are better than either the ancient dung-covered prophets, or of mainstream society, and maybe they are worth pursuing with others who would agree on them as pathways to social improvement. So let them be!

(January 5, 2016 at 10:53 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: It sometimes isn't always easy however, reconciling for lack of a better word, my own worldviews, my own sense of morality...with some of what the Bible proposes. But, having come back to faith, it seems likely that compassion and so on is what we should all strive for, more so than condemning people who aren't following a certain 'brand' of morality. Christianity has so many sects, too...you could put 500 Christians in a room, and all 500 of us will disagree as to what morality means. lol I have a friend who used to be a Jehovah's Witness and she would tell me how strict the moral 'code' was for them, which just struck me as stifling, and really not very freeing. (no offense to JW's, but just giving an example of how far reaching it all can go, when it comes to religious interpretations of morality)

Glad you raised that point. The runaway proliferation of conflicting religious doctrine can make the idea of deciding for oneself on the difference between good and evil altogether bewildering, when in fact it is anything but in most cases. Yes, navigating life without a pedantic rule book leaves gray many areas which are made strictly black or white by theistic doctrines (e.g. abortion or individual autonomy regarding one's own existence when suffering from a terminal illness), but this in itself creates more options which enable us to justly consider each given situation as it comes - from this much better results should be expected than rules which make everything black or white and often make any good living impossible! The bonus is that you would tend to make decisions with dramatically fewer incidences of conflict with others when everyone is deciding not by religious rules, but by their own sense of justice which owes partly to genes, and the rest through the experience of living on this planet - we would all be surprised just how much we have in common if we didn't have our lives directed by religious rules!