All I'm reading here is that you want us to agree with you that your reasons are solid.

But we don't think they are.

Why can't you accept that and move on? Why is it so important we agree with you?

(January 10, 2016 at 1:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: No, reason is not reality anymore than a dream or a novel is reality.  You can for example prove vario

If so, tell me which one of our five sense detects that "self"? Is it the eyes that see who you are. Is it the ears? 

How do you detect love? What does it mean to you?

Justice, goodness, beauty is a detectable as perceiving myself exists. I see no reason to make an exception to them, the perception of myself actually depends on them existing.

Those things are all abstract ideas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is not measurable and opinions about it differ widely. The same is true of goodness, and justice. The are human judgments no more. A rock has the same mass regardless of who or what perceives it. Not so beauty. Beauty is in your mind, not in reality.

Self is rather complicated as it appears to be a function of the brain. Without the brain, the function ceases.

(January 10, 2016 at 1:30 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 1:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: No, reason is not reality anymore than a dream or a novel is reality.  You can for example prove vario

If so, tell me which one of our five sense detects that "self"? Is it the eyes that see who you are. Is it the ears? 

How do you detect love? What does it mean to you?

Justice, goodness, beauty is a detectable as perceiving myself exists. I see no reason to make an exception to them, the perception of myself actually depends on them existing.

Those things are all abstract ideas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  It is not measurable and opinions about it differ widely.  The same is true of goodness, and justice.  The are human judgmentspirit no more. A rock has the same mass regardless of who or what perceives it. Not so beauty.  Beauty is in your mind, not in reality.  

Self is rather complicated as it appears to be a function of the brain. Without the brain,  the function ceases.

What if you perceive you yourself have an objective value but don't know how to measure it? Why is that impossible rationally?

To give an example, I see the moon. I know it has a mass. I don't know how to measure it but I know it has a weight. 

Why can't the same be true about the perception of myself?

You left out the 3rd idiot (I don't think atheists or theists are idiots, but mystic sure is)

MysticKnight: "I am so smart, I know I picked the right religion because my book says so, i deserve a cookie....mmmm so halal"

(January 10, 2016 at 1:46 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: You left out the 3rd idiot (I don't think atheists or theists are idiots, but mystic sure is)

MysticKnight: "I am so smart, I know I picked the right religion because my book says so, i deserve a cookie....mmmm so halal"

You don't realize it but people like you make Theists think badly of Atheists. If over all you guys would give a sincere humble compassionate approach, you would be respected more by Theists. I know some Atheists in real life, and they are not like this at all, so I don't think Atheists are the type to always throw insults.  In fact I've witnessed some of the more compassionate caring types and understanding to be Atheists.

But this attitude has to go for that to happen online too. If a Theist wonders how Atheists are like and he sees insults and what not, that's going to give him an impression. If the most person to be given kudos on the site is a person with most toxic attitude towards Theists, then what do you expect Theists to think? You want to mock and insult, that's up to you. It's your choice. But it makes you look weaker and not stronger.

Yes the Theist coming online shouldn't generalize his experience to people in general in real life, but it will happen.

If more people were like Whateverist here or Tiberius (and I can mention many more good names), then people would have a very good impression.

I know people say "Atheism" doesn't play any role in how the person acts because it simply is a lack of belief in God, but that's not how its going to give an impression and seem like to most people coming online to these forums.

(January 10, 2016 at 1:34 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: What if you perceive you yourself have an objective value but don't know how to measure it? Why is that impossible rationally?

To give an example, I see the moon. I know it has a mass. I don't know how to measure it but I know it has a weight. 

Why can't the same be true about the perception of myself?

The physical effects of the moon are quantifiable. If we do measure it, we will reach the same conclusions about it's mass. We both know it has mass and that that mass is quantifiable. If we pretend it doesn't exist, it won't go away. It will still reflect the sun's light. It will still affect earth'so orbit. In short it exists.

Harry Potter exists in our thoughts. But we don’t all have the same picture of him, and we can't weigh him. Unlike the moon, if we all cease to think about him, he will cease to exist. God exists in exactly the same way as Harry Potter, no more, no less. That is to say they are both thought constructs nothing more.

(January 10, 2016 at 2:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 10, 2016 at 1:46 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: You left out the 3rd idiot (I don't think atheists or theists are idiots, but mystic sure is)

MysticKnight: "I am so smart, I know I picked the right religion because my book says so, i deserve a cookie....mmmm so halal"

You don't realize it but people like you make Theists think badly of Atheists. If over all you guys would give a sincere humble compassionate approach, you would be respected more by Theists. I know some Atheists in real life, and they are not like this at all, so I don't think Atheists are the type to always throw insults.  In fact I've witnessed some of the more compassionate caring types and understanding to be Atheists.

But this attitude has to go for that to happen online too. If a Theist wonders how Atheists are like and he sees insults and what not, that's going to give him an impression. If the most person to be given kudos on the site is a person with most toxic attitude towards Theists, then what do you expect Theists to think? You want to mock and insult, that's up to you. It's your choice. But it makes you look weaker and not stronger.

Yes the Theist coming online shouldn't generalize his experience to people in general in real life, but it will happen.

If more people were like Whateverist here or Tiberius (and I can mention many more good names), then people would have a very good impression.

I know people say "Atheism" doesn't play any role in how the person acts because it simply is a lack of belief in God, but that's not how its going to give an impression and seem like to most people coming online to these forums.

 How would that work? I'm a theist in regards to FSM, learn to read.
Anyway you posted this imaginary huge strawman argument and in the process made yourself look like a huge tool.