(March 17, 2016 at 12:08 pm)Drich Wrote: 1)God set an impossible standard. (the law) Jesus extended that standard to include thought.(mat 5) So now we have an impossible standard squared to earn righteousness (the right to goto heaven) by our works.

What a shitty system.  There's no practical difference between setting an impossible standard and simply damning everyone from the outset.

Quote:2)God knowing Heaven would be empty, then provided a way to obtain righteousness (the right to goto heaven) apart from following the law/Earning righteousness through our actions.

Making the system as useless as it is poorly thought out.  I'm told I have to accept the torture and murder of the "better man" for something that -I- have done, as part of this "way" of yours.  That was gods brilliant plan, to subvert his own shitty system, so that terrible people have an out. Righteousness doesn't even belong in this conversation.  Is it actually surprising that I'm uninterested? I know, I know, you think that people who don't want to by the product don't understand....but I don't want to buy the product because I -do- understand.

(March 17, 2016 at 12:58 pm)Drich Wrote: Why do I share? because I have been given this 'gift' and am required to use it to the glory of God.

I've always believed that you believe that you're required to do what you do here. You're lack of patience and overall tact, along with the smug, condescending attitude strongly suggests that you hate being here, and don't care what happens to people either way. 

For your sake, (if your God's real), I sure hope just showing up's enough.

(March 17, 2016 at 10:15 am)Drich Wrote: Oh glob..

I thought you were one of the 'smart ones.' You can seriously be reading my posts and still retain such a large content diffency unless you are just scanning for keywords to build a strawman/what you think I am trying to argue from just a quick skim read.

So let me explain my first paragraph which is what in post  652 that renders your whole last post and the one before it completely moot.

Please take time to read this again:
Ah!! There in lies the problem. You think I am suggesting we exchange one set of principles for another.

I'm not. Nothing could be further from the truth.

What I am saying is we need an unchanging standard, so that we can always Identify sin/Know wrong, so then we always have the option to repent of it, and find redemption. What self righteousness does, is lower the bar so rather than push one to repentance.. we look to justify sin rather than turn from it.

Strict adherence is not the key. repentance is, we can't/won't ever repent if we feel justified in sin. If we learn to repent we will also learn to find the freedom from the 'strict adherence of the law' that "moral people" have to have inorder to maintain their 'morality.' This 'strict adherence that bind moral people to the law (and subsequently why they tend to be constantly changing the law to fit their sinful appetites) is the total opposite of what Christ offers. Christ is offering righteousness Despite one's sins not because of our perceived 'righteousness.'

You last two posts just like all the posts of Thena Are under the assumption that I am trying to push Christian 'morals' over pop morality/empathy based morals.

Understand 'smart guy' I'm not. As you pointed out All morals are corrupt, unchecked 'christian morals' are what incited the Dark ages, witch burnings, the inquisition, whatever you said about 'fags.' All the 'bad stuff' is a direct result of taking 1/2 of what God has done and then trying to make it fit a 'moral' standard of living.

What I am saying is all 'morality' is bad, no matter who sponcers it or how it is founded. because all 'morality' is based on a righteousness (in this case a gold standard of good) other than God's. God's standard of righteousness can be found in his completed law. All of the Law of the OT, along with the extension of the law Jesus himself added to include thought. Which is Impossible for any of us to follow. Which is why God provided atonement. atonement allows us grace from the sins we being slaves to sin can not help but to commit. The only catch being we have to repent, before we can accept atonement that gives us grace/freedom from the law.

However we can not repent if our 'morality' says it is ok to commit certain sins. That is the only reason we need God's standard. so we know when to repent/turn from our sin. It is not meant for us to try and live by to define our 'morality/worthiness' for heaven. God's law is only to show our sin. So again we can repent of it and be free from trying to live a 'moral' life. meaning a life defined by our actions.

So you see while you are busy trying to define who you are by how you live your life/what deed your 'morality' tells you to do or not do. A Christian's 'righteousness' is found completely separate and apart from the things he does or does not do. My 'righteousness' is defined by the life Christ lived, not the one I live. for I put on his 'morality/righteousness' and die to my own when I accepted the atonement He offered me.. That means I am free from the laws of man and God as a means to define my own righteousness.

So again you whole argument is moot as I am not trying to replace one morality with another as you seem to think. I am trying to free you from following any version of morality to define who you are before God.

1) There is no such thing as "God's Morality", only people who claim to be in touch with the Almighty Creator of the Universe, in astonishing (and mutually exclusive) displays of hubris... including using "smart" in quotations because you consider that insulting.

2) I'm not asking you to exchange anything for anything. We're all here pointing out to you that there's no difference, despite your delusions to the contrary, between what you call God's Morality and that invented by humans. You just won't listen, or else you dodge.

3) We don't "justify sin"; we justify all behaviors, or we don't do them... that's the entire basis of ethical behavior. We simply don't consider it to BE a sin if Vishnu says I can't eat beef but I still like hamburgers. But in your astounding arrogance, you act as if only one god is making (imaginary) demands of the human species, via His/Her Human Spokespersons.

4) Since, in your mind, "My Deity is the Only Deity™", you get to pretend to yourself that we're just in defiance of YOUR deity, when the truth is you're in just as much defiance to the sins-list of every other god out there. But you don't care, right? Because you know they don't really exist. Well, Vishnu and Jehovah are exactly as real as each other-- and their lists of sins are exactly as much a consideration in my daily activities. That is to say, of course, zero.

5) The concept of what YHWH wants of His People has changed radically over the centuries, even according to the Wholly Babble you worship... from slavery to the "place" of women, very few denominations follow the original (Kudos to Fred Phelps and crew of the Westboro Baptist Church, as they seem to be the only Christians out there Keeping It Real™ with respect to what the Bible commands-- sure, everyone else thinks they're barbaric scumbags, even their fellow Christians, but hey) version of What God Wants™, and the excising of numerous bits of Levitical law and Hebrew religious culture when the Christians took over was even more radical. It's as human-made, human-interpreted, and human-culture-altered as anything else on the planet, and you're either delusional or willfully blind if you can't look around and see that.

Or do you truly think YOU are the only one who Truly Understands™ the Word and Will of God?

As for vicarious blood atonement, I'm as disgusted by you barbarians who think that kind of magic is a real thing as I am by the Santaria chicken-slaughterers. Seriously, it blows me away that you can simultaneously be that barbaric and consider yourselves to have divine insight-- if there is a God(dess), I have little doubt (s)he would be more angry with you and your ilk than with infidels like us.

(March 17, 2016 at 1:40 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Suuuure you have.  You're special.

That's the thing... There is nothing special about me outside of the fact I found and followed the directions to God in the bible. What God gave me is promised to everyone who simply Humble themselves before Him.

Quote: I have known people who prayed in churches for decades to feel one hint of the "holy spirit" and never felt anything.

... And where is praying in church or looking for God in Church for that matter found in the bible?
Not that one can't find Him there, it's just Religion is a double edged sword/tool. yes it can help you cut to the core understandings of God, but it can also be used to cut you back/keep you from growning past the doctrines of said church. If God is found outside those Doctrine then those in the church will never experience Him.

Quote: I have known preachers who claimed to have it who were druggies and rapists on the side.

You mean the type of people Jesus was admonished for spending time with by the 'church goers/church leaders' of His day?
Do that really surprise you? God gives mercy to the humble not the proud. Far tooo often it is those who have sinned deeply know the humility needed to properly approach God. While those who think they have found Him are too proud of themselves to be the people they need to be to ever know God.

Quote: I have never seen anyone prove that this so-called "gift" was anything more than another way to say "I'm special" and if you agree to believe what I say, you will be too.  

The gifts are outlined in 1 cor 12. All anyone has to do is find the gift on the list and test it using the bible as your answer key. If the gift exceeds what the bible says, then it is not a 'Spiritual gift.'
Easy-peasy.

Quote:   God doesn't exist.  The Holy Spirit doesn't exist.  Your hideous book is not proof.

 
says... who?

Quote:Your assertion that you're oh-so-special with your nose-in-the-air because of your delusions is not proof.

what are you talking about all noses are in the air (ones that breath are anyway.) where would you think my nose would be in a glass of water?

Quote: Personal stories are not proof.

Actually they are in any court of law. They are not the 'proof' you want. But that's the thing isn't it? It all boils down to Humility. Know that God is NOT going to meet you on your terms. He has commanded and is waiting for you to meet Him on His.

Quote: A book of myths is not proof.

Didn't say the bible is proof. It is verification.

Quote: When you can come up with something other than egotistical word-salad, some real proof, I'll pay attention.  Otherwise, you're a waste of oxygen.

so your nose is in the air as well!

(March 17, 2016 at 2:56 pm)Thena323 Wrote:

(March 17, 2016 at 1:11 pm)Drich Wrote: But again in that one act (do no harm) you are defining your self by your action. Likewise you will define and judge others by their own actions in accordance to your mandate. I purified your 'charge' to "do no harm" from "do as little harm as possible." to show you the self righteousness you built into your one guideline. In that you leave yourself an out (a way reason to do harm) if you feel justified. Which again put you at the center of your own righteousness bubble. Yours is truly a righteousness drivied from self Or rather your is truly self righteousness, as apposed to the righteousness people normally refer to based on popular culture. Without even the checks and balances of culture, someone like you has a far greater chance of following the path of the unibomber or serial killer than someone bound to soceity's ideas of right and wrong.

Wow. You admonish people for embracing Poop-ular Morality at all in one breath, and prop up culture/society's system of checks balances the moment it's convenient. So, yeah...you're full of shit. 

I stated that I wish to do "as little harm as possible" because it's impossible to go through life with without causing suffering or discomfort to others on some level, even that which is inadvertent or indirect. I suspect you knew that, but you still felt compelled to get your digs in, and liken me to Jeffrey Dahmer and the Unibomber. 

Congratulations, on being a Mean Girl. You're doing great!

Personally, I think that some tool who believes he's achieved "righteousness" and therefore no longer bound to The Law would be more inclined to do such things; He's got a pass, after all. Under any other circumstances, would you consider guaranteed exemption from the worst consequences an effective tool for discouraging negative behavior?

With the freedom offered, our true natures are revealed. If our nature is to intentionally live in sin, then God has identified that as being evil. Which again God will not abid/forgive Evil. (which is the very problem you have with any type of morality as it protects certain sin.)

Also know my intentions are not to be mean. I am just showing you the critical flaw in your reasoning. separate 'feeling' from how you function/think. The processes you use to think are not inherently you, they are a reflection of what you were taught. They are just tools. If a better tool comes along, it doesn't mean youre a bad person for not being born with the most perfect set. It's just maybe a time for an upgrade.

(March 17, 2016 at 3:18 pm)Rhythm Wrote: What a shitty system.  There's no practical difference between setting an impossible standard and simply damning everyone from the outset.

Didn't think this through I see.
What if the plan was never to have us live by that standard to begin with?

Quote:Making the system as useless as it is poorly thought out.  I'm told I have to accept the torture and murder of the "better man" for something that -I- have done, as part of this "way" of yours.  That was gods brilliant plan, to subvert his own shitty system, so that terrible people have an out.  Righteousness doesn't even belong in this conversation.   Is it actually surprising that I'm uninterested?  I know, I know, you think that people who don't want to by the product don't understand....but I don't want to buy the product because I -do- understand.

If you not interested then why are either of us wasting time discussing it this for weeks?

(March 17, 2016 at 6:34 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: 1) There is no such thing as "God's Morality"

Indeed. As 'morality' assimilates sin into it's version of good.

Quote:, only people who claim to be in touch with the Almighty Creator of the Universe,

Meaning, those who have read their bibles.

Quote:in astonishing (and mutually exclusive) displays of hubris... including using "smart" in quotations because you consider that insulting.

The "smart" quotes or the not so 'smaught' tags are meant to separate your meaning of a word from how it is being defined.

Quote:2) I'm not asking you to exchange anything for anything. We're all here pointing out to you that there's no difference, despite your delusions to the contrary, between what you call God's Morality and that invented by humans. You just won't listen, or else you dodge.

But again there is... The difference being all morality is works based. Morality is based on action or inaction. Righteousness "God's Morality" (as you put it) has nothing to do with how we handle a given situation.

Quote:3) We don't "justify sin"; we justify all behaviors, or we don't do them..

That's not true. Look at Homosexuality, and the whole culture of arguments based on why this is a viable accepted life style.
A life style that would not be so widely accepted if not for those very justifications/arguements.

Quote:that's the entire basis of ethical behavior. We simply don't consider it to BE a sin if Vishnu says I can't eat beef but I still like hamburgers. But in your astounding arrogance, you act as if only one god is making (imaginary) demands of the human species, via His/Her Human Spokespersons.

Says the douche who wants to pretend that the predominate philosophies of today has permeated mankind since our first civilization. When in fact we are not even one generation removed from checking our behavior with some sort of deity.

Quote:4) Since, in your mind, "My Deity is the Only Deity™", you get to pretend to yourself that we're just in defiance of YOUR deity, when the truth is you're in just as much defiance to the sins-list of every other god out there. But you don't care, right? Because you know they don't really exist. Well, Vishnu and Jehovah are exactly as real as each other-- and their lists of sins are exactly as much a consideration in my daily activities. That is to say, of course, zero.

Glad you brought this point up. Why? because I want to demonstrate what a person's counter arguement would be if they truly thought a God to be false....



Did you see it? Here allow me to demonstrate again...



Do you see why your 'objections' fall of deaf ears? because you have objection specific to the God of the bible. If you Really had no doubt that God was not real their would be no argument. (me thinks, he doth protest too much...)

Quote:5) The concept of what YHWH wants of His People has changed radically over the centuries, even according to the Wholly Babble you worship... from slavery to the "place" of women, very few denominations follow the original (Kudos to Fred Phelps and crew of the Westboro Baptist Church, as they seem to be the only Christians out there Keeping It Real™ with respect to what the Bible commands-- sure, everyone else thinks they're barbaric scumbags, even their fellow Christians, but hey) version of What God Wants™, and the excising of numerous bits of Levitical law and Hebrew religious culture when the Christians took over was even more radical. It's as human-made, human-interpreted, and human-culture-altered as anything else on the planet, and you're either delusional or willfully blind if you can't look around and see that.

Maybe olde freddy doesn't have Galatians 2 in his bible. Where clearly Paul even rebukes Peter for trying to live by the old law...

Quote:Or do you truly think YOU are the only one who Truly Understands™ the Word and Will of God?

What makes you think I am the only one? Just because I am the only one here who teaches what i specifically teach?
Understand that in what the bible teaches their is freedom to understand as much as a Humble child in sunday school truly seeking God, or as little as the pope who creates catholic doctrine.
Both CAN be equally 'right' before God about what they/we do and do not understand.

Quote:As for vicarious blood atonement, I'm as disgusted by you barbarians who think that kind of magic is a real thing as I am by the Santaria chicken-slaughterers. Seriously, it blows me away that you can simultaneously be that barbaric and consider yourselves to have divine insight-- if there is a God(dess), I have little doubt (s)he would be more angry with you and your ilk than with infidels like us.

yes, yes you are impressively self righteous, few have attained your mastery!
I mean:
I-am-very-intimidated-by-what-you-have-said-here. Your-point-about-God-and-the-blood-of-Christ-has,-in-the-history-of-the-church-never-been-brought-up-ever. Either-by-an-athesit-or-muslim-ever,-and-I-canot-or-do-not-want-to-respond. (Your choice)

(March 18, 2016 at 8:59 am)Drich Wrote:

(March 17, 2016 at 1:40 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

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Suuuure you have.  You're special.

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That's the thing... There is nothing special about me outside of the fact I found and followed the directions to God in the bible. What God gave me is promised to everyone who simply Humble themselves before Him.

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Quote:

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 I have known people who prayed in churches for decades to feel one hint of the "holy spirit" and never felt anything.

---

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... And where is praying in church or looking for God in Church for that matter found in the bible?
Not that one can't find Him there, it's just Religion is a double edged sword/tool. yes it can help you cut to the core understandings of God, but it can also be used to cut you back/keep you from growning past the doctrines of said church. If God is found outside those Doctrine then those in the church will never experience Him.

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Quote:

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 I have known preachers who claimed to have it who were druggies and rapists on the side.

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You mean the type of people Jesus was admonished for spending time with by the 'church goers/church leaders' of His day?
Do that really surprise you? God gives mercy to the humble not the proud. Far tooo often it is those who have sinned deeply know the humility needed to properly approach God. While those who think they have found Him are too proud of themselves to be the people they need to be to ever know God.

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Quote:

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 I have never seen anyone prove that this so-called "gift" was anything more than another way to say "I'm special" and if you agree to believe what I say, you will be too.  

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The gifts are outlined in 1 cor 12. All anyone has to do is find the gift on the list and test it using the bible as your answer key. If the gift exceeds what the bible says, then it is not a 'Spiritual gift.'
Easy-peasy.

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Quote: 

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 God doesn't exist.  The Holy Spirit doesn't exist.  Your hideous book is not proof.

---

 

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says... who?

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Quote:

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Your assertion that you're oh-so-special with your nose-in-the-air because of your delusions is not proof.

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what are you talking about all noses are in the air (ones that breath are anyway.) where would you think my nose would be in a glass of water?

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Quote:

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 Personal stories are not proof.

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Actually they are in any court of law. They are not the 'proof' you want. But that's the thing isn't it? It all boils down to Humility. Know that God is NOT going to meet you on your terms. He has commanded and is waiting for you to meet Him on His.

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Quote:

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 A book of myths is not proof.

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Didn't say the bible is proof. It is verification.

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Quote:

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 When you can come up with something other than egotistical word-salad, some real proof, I'll pay attention.  Otherwise, you're a waste of oxygen.

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so your nose is in the air as well!

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(March 18, 2016 at 2:23 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(March 18, 2016 at 8:59 am)Drich Wrote:

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That's the thing... There is nothing special about me outside of the fact I found and followed the directions to God in the bible. What God gave me is promised to everyone who simply Humble themselves before Him.

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... And where is praying in church or looking for God in Church for that matter found in the bible?
Not that one can't find Him there, it's just Religion is a double edged sword/tool. yes it can help you cut to the core understandings of God, but it can also be used to cut you back/keep you from growning past the doctrines of said church. If God is found outside those Doctrine then those in the church will never experience Him.

---

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You mean the type of people Jesus was admonished for spending time with by the 'church goers/church leaders' of His day?
Do that really surprise you? God gives mercy to the humble not the proud. Far tooo often it is those who have sinned deeply know the humility needed to properly approach God. While those who think they have found Him are too proud of themselves to be the people they need to be to ever know God.

---

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The gifts are outlined in 1 cor 12. All anyone has to do is find the gift on the list and test it using the bible as your answer key. If the gift exceeds what the bible says, then it is not a 'Spiritual gift.'
Easy-peasy.

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says... who?

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what are you talking about all noses are in the air (ones that breath are anyway.) where would you think my nose would be in a glass of water?

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Actually they are in any court of law. They are not the 'proof' you want. But that's the thing isn't it? It all boils down to Humility. Know that God is NOT going to meet you on your terms. He has commanded and is waiting for you to meet Him on His.

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Didn't say the bible is proof. It is verification.

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so your nose is in the air as well!

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Says who???

Science?

You do understand Religion and Science are not even the same category, and you are comparing apples and oranges right?? Use to be, a long time ago Religion/God was debated and approached as a philosophy. Most of those arguments ended poorly for the philosopher, because God could indeed be demonstrated to enough of a degree to trump empty philosophy. So then along comes 19th centruy the self righteous philospher with an interest in 'science.' Now straddling two different disciplines, the Anti Theist is no longer bound by the rules of philosphy or just science alone, they can take the best of both, and when one fails you seek to tap the other.

For example the foundational principle of Science (the scientific method) Demands completely mastery and control over a given principle or phenomena for it to be considered known/vetted/verifiable. Which would mean we (finite) would have to have complete control/mastery over God (infinite) inorder to proof God to the degree Science requires. Which (philosophically speaking) means God is not, Can no longer be God/Alpha and Omega. So even if we could win at that Game we still loose.

So no, not going to play. Pick a discipline and follow it through. You want to talk philosophy let talk theological philosophy, Or Science but not both when ever it suits you. when you loose sack up and concede. Don't pull this weak minded BS and try and sift the goal posts on me.

(March 17, 2016 at 1:34 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 17, 2016 at 1:13 pm)loganonekenobi Wrote: So far I have not seen real work as to a solution that would help us look beyond current moral thinking other than individual initiative. I can see nothing more here than the usual christian rhetoric that causes division among humanity by attempting to coerce everyone to a way of thinking that is not evidence based.

Do better or at least try.  You expect us to.

If you think your expected to 'do better' define "usual Christian rhetoric" and how it causes division, then apply that defination to what I have said, and i will 'attempt to do better'

You expect me to pay attention to what you said but when i say something.....
first of all this is typical of the christian to do. they expect others to listen to their message but refuse to listen to any other

Psalm 14:1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10New International Version (NIV)
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
If that isn't divisive enough i don't know what is...

this gives them the right to push their disease everywhere
Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

these verses and many others do two things that is totally typical of the "christian rhetoric"
"we have a message to give and you must listen." many times in history they forced other to listen.
and
"we are not going to listen to anything you have to say because our god told us not to"
That, sir, is what you are doing.
This is what you have been doing the entire time I have seen you on this forum.
This is what divides the human race (among other things).
I dont care that the you think the old testament doesn't apply the fact is that the typical christian response is exactly as i have represented it.
You are doing exactly this.
Instead of thinking for yourself and saying
"hmm does homosexuality really do as much harm as pedophilia?" you lump them together equally because the goat herders who wrote the bible say so. (because there is no proof that it was inspired divinely).
In short the non religious are allowed to think, change, and evolve just as life has done for billions of years
The religious are not allowed this if they hold fast to every word of the xenophobic,misogynistic , genocidal, and insecure wisdom of desperate desert folks who were barely in the iron age.
All you do is say "cause God says so" instead of "doing X creates Y problem and therefore X should be considered immoral."
I'm okay with this kind of discussion but that is not what you are doing.
That is what i mean by "do better".