(April 4, 2016 at 7:14 am)AJW333 Wrote:

(April 4, 2016 at 4:30 am)pocaracas Wrote: The way I see it, abiogenesis isn't about faith, but about looking at all information science has gathered from star formation, to planet formation, to physics, to chemistry, to biology.

At some point in the past, our sun was a just a bunch of hydrogen gas and some remnants from a 1st or 2nd gen star. It coalesced, through gravity, and eventually ignited becoming the scorching yellow ball we know. Some leftover material from that initial cloud also coalesced and formed the planets, with the heavier materials, as you'd expect, nearer to the center, where gravity is stronger.
The coalescence of these materials was probably not a peaceful one, with some banging around, which would give our planet it's internal geology - a hot core, a cool outer shell.
Water methane and who knows what other chemicals then abounded on the surface. Eventually, some bonded, because that's how chemistry works... and... biology began.
Biology is chemistry, chemistry is physics, particularly quantum mechanics. And QM has been shown to be right, time and time again... down to it's more general form: QCD, with the relatively recent discovery of the Higgs boson.

There is this whole framework on which science is based that can account for abiogenesis... even if the exact mechanism hasn't been found... it can account for it.
Then, there's the theist position, where an extra entity must be present to provide some extra spark into the natural chemistry so as to turn it into biology.

Why should we postulate such an entity?
It's not required.

It opens up a can of worms. One that not even believers are ready to delve through. Thus they wave it away with "out of space and time"... as if that means anything. But it just shows how limited and bound our language is - out of space? Not in space? Then what does it mean to exist?
Going down this path, Darth Vader comes into existence, too. And the Force, and Harry Potter and magic and Warp drive and Krypton, and Superman and Ironman and...... then you come back to reality and realize that the entity is just as created as all these fictional characters.
I'm not saying they're impossible to exist.... but our present awareness of their existence is based on our own imagination.

Being aware of this "origin story", one realizes that the most intellectually honest opinion to have on the subject of life arising on this planet is abiogenesis - no extra entity is required.

May I suggest that until a proof of abiogenesis is discovered, the entire concept is on very shaky ground. We don't even have a detailed theoretical formula for how we ended up with DNA, apart from some general suggestions of amino acids forming proteins by chance. Until abiogenesis can be physically demonstrated, a supernatural cause is very much in the picture.

Mate, you're not getting it.
Abiogenesis merely tells you that whatever happened, happened in accordance to the universally patent natural world.
The exact mechanism is unknown. People are working on it.

You are wanting to claim that whatever happened, happened in accordance to the unevidenced magic brought forth by an invisible, non-interventionalist, "personal" deity.

I don't know how else to say this... to put the god claim at the same level as the natural one is, at best, dishonest.

No cure for willful ignorance unfortunately...

Yeah. This is painful.

I'm pretty sure I already posted this video before, in this very thread, but I'll post it again as nothing seems to have sinked in. I've given up with these guys but I'm writing for those following at home.

If we don't have an explanation, we don't have one. It might be natural, or it might be supernatural, whatever that even means. We don't know which. Just announcing it is supernatural is an argument from ignorance, as well as being completely pointless and premature.

http://youtu.be/J5u5-Bg2ENQ

Right. The convenient thing about using the "supernatural" as an answer for natural phenomena is that its mechanism of action, by definition, does not require a natural explanation. The down side is that it doesn't actually provide any real answers to anything, lol.

That guy in the video makes a few good points, but I think he has issues

(April 4, 2016 at 9:38 am)robvalue Wrote: That guy in the video makes a few good points, but I think he has issues

Lol, yeah, like why is there a gorilla hanging out in the background???

I couldn't even guess. That's totally messed up!

He also seems to think the whole of reality is floating just in front of him.

(April 4, 2016 at 9:38 am)robvalue Wrote: That guy in the video makes a few good points, but I think he has issues

Yeah, he's gone mad with power like that Albert Schweitzer guy!

(April 4, 2016 at 9:33 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Right.  The convenient thing about using the "supernatural" as an answer for natural phenomena is that its mechanism of action, by definition, does not require a natural explanation.  The down side is that it doesn't actually provide any real answers to anything, lol.

Here's the thing, what you perceive to be "natural" are filtered through the 5 senses, to claim something doesn't exist just because you can't detect it by seeing, touching, smelling, hearing, or tasting it, is simply foolish.

If the human eye can only distinguish around 10 million colors, does that mean only 10 million colors exist? If a person is born blind, how would you go about proving color exists?

Being spiritual means not to place absolute unwavering trust in the 5 senses, because the natural senses only detect the natural, not the spiritual; Hence:

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: ( For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) - 2 Corinthians 6-7

So what sort of form does this extra sense take? Where is your god hiding? We've extended our human senses to cover a huge swathe of the electromagnetic spectrum but nothing looks like a god yet.

It's pathetic the lengths you'll go to. Your god used to be just out of reach in the clouds causing volcanos and earthquakes before we chased him down. He's elusive your god eh? Just keeps on running as we uncover more about the Universe.

You've put him somewhere that you think he's safe now - "you can't detect him with any of your senses or equipment you fools". I know where the fucker is though Huggy, inside your head where he's always been.

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