I agree. I've never heard of anything religion accomplishes that couldn't be done just as well, if not better, by secular means.

It's just that religion has held something of a monopoly on social support structures, especially by ostracising people who won't comply. I feel this is changing now in the US. It's already changed in England.

(April 6, 2016 at 9:16 pm)GeneralDog Wrote: This shit should be illegal, no doubt. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aiV39cR2jgc

Well, I doubt, actually, that it should be illegal.

There may come a time in the future when it does become illegal, but only because society has moved on enough to realize how damaging it is. I agree it would never work to just announce it to be illegal. It has to be a learning process by everyone.

It was only recently that "marital rape" became a thing.

(April 9, 2016 at 4:10 am)robvalue Wrote: There may come a time in the future when it does become illegal, but only because society has moved on enough to realize how damaging it is. I agree it would never work to just announce it to be illegal. It has to be a learning process by everyone.

It was only recently that "marital rape" became a thing.

So... who gets to decide what religions are acceptable to be taught, or the ways in which they are to be taught, to children, if not... their parents? A government panel? Any such suggestion strikes me as beyond creepy, in an Orwellian sort of way.

And comparing indoctrination to rape... ridiculous.

(April 9, 2016 at 4:47 am)Mudhammam Wrote: So... who gets to decide what religions are acceptable to be taught, or the ways in which they are to be taught, to children, if not... their parents? A government panel? Any such suggestion strikes me as beyond creepy, in an Orwellian sort of way.

I would not want to live under a system where this was even possible.

You misunderstand my point. I'm saying society might be totally different. They may view indoctrination of any religion to be as obviously harmful as we consider marital rape to be now. I'm not saying it's "as bad", I'm saying marital rape is now obviously wrong, but only recently so. That was the point. There wouldn't be any argument about it, in a possible different future society.

I often note that among people who are firmly against certain things that are "obviously wrong" now, statistically, many of them would go along with them had they been the status quo. It's takes a societal shift.

So I'm not talking about forcing anything on anyone. I'm talking about society coming to conclusions over time. Nor am I saying this will definely happen, just that I can imagine it's possible. People who still wanted to indoctrinate children would be viewed, in that society, as child abusers.

I got hung up on the point where you said it could be "made illegal".

I probably could have phrased it better. I meant it would naturally become illegal, through common sense morality evolving over generations.

I'm not suggesting trying to force the issue, that would be pointless and impossible in our current society.

I'd be quite happy living in such a society, that had as a whole come to this realisation. But it's too early for us. Who knows if we will ever move in that direction. I think indoctrination is in the process of becoming less favourably looked upon though. But very gradually so.

For me, I don't think it serves society's interest - leastwise one that claims to value freedom and liberty - to have that ower except I'm cases where demonstrable abuse has occurred. Who wants to live under a system which can decide what you teach your children? Not me. In matters of public health, sure. Not in terms of imparting a worldview on your own children, regardless of how offensive I find indoctrination of any sort.

How would society, now, view someone who had indoctrinated their kids to think that Lord of the Rings is real, and to base their real life decisions on that text and the characters?

I'm not saying I have the answer to this. I don't really know what the reaction would be.

CD: Sure, I haven't given it any thought as to how it would be implemented, or what level of indoctrination would be actionable. It may just be all religion would have died out by that stage anyway. It was only a brainstorm. Religion itself may be seen as abuse by that society. Who knows.