(April 21, 2016 at 3:27 am)AJW333 Wrote:

(April 21, 2016 at 3:01 am)pocaracas Wrote: Simply that, sometimes, the minority manages to have credible data to back their claims.
And that makes changing people's minds so much easier.

Oh OK. Sure this is often the case with scientific breakthroughs, the discoverer is usually given a bunch of grief when he suggests changing the status quo. However, that said, there is a heap of junk science being put out there by people with an agenda. Just take a look at some of the fines dished out to drug companies in the last few years. Merck lied about the safety of Vioxx and it killed 27,000 people. This earned them a $850 million fine and $5 billion in compensation. Trust the science? Trust your doctor? Not in this case.

So, is there a downside to the LGBT agenda? Absolutely! This can be seen by the draconian penalties served to silence all dissent. If you were brought up being taught that genetics and sex organs were the determining factors for gender and you stick by that science, it could cost you everything you have,

"Did you call a transsexual person “he” or “she” when they preferred to be called “zhe?” According to a newly updated anti-discrimination law in New York City, you could be fined an eye-watering $250,000.
In the latest, astonishing act of draconian political correctness, the NYC Commission on Human Rights have updated a law on “Discrimination on the Basis of Gender Identity or Expression” to threaten staggering financial penalties against property owners who “misgender” employees or tenants.
Incidents that are deemed “wilful and malicious” will see property owners face up to $250,000 in fines, while standard violations of the law will result in a $125,000 fine. For small business owners, these sums are crippling.

It’s not as simple as referring to transmen “he” or transwomen as “she,” either. The legislation makes it clear that if an individual desires, property owners will have to make use of “zhe,” “hir” and any other preferred pronoun. From the updated legislation:" http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/12/27...anssexual/

Anyone who is an advocate of free speech and freedom of thought should be deeply disturbed by this Nazi like behaviour.

Not sure what this has to do with what we were talking about....but ok...

I agree that such rules on the malicious intent of speech are against the generally upheld free speech, defended by the international bill of human rights... I'd be curious to see what happens if someone contests that in NY.

I hope people are reading their own sources this time

Is that the Death Star I see on the horizon...

(April 20, 2016 at 9:32 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Anti Vaxer?!  Nooooooooooo!!!!!!  *tripple face palm*

Wait, you forgot "tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theorist nutjob."

Concerning such wild conspiracies, what do you make of this article?

(April 21, 2016 at 3:34 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(April 21, 2016 at 3:27 am)AJW333 Wrote: Oh OK. Sure this is often the case with scientific breakthroughs, the discoverer is usually given a bunch of grief when he suggests changing the status quo. However, that said, there is a heap of junk science being put out there by people with an agenda. Just take a look at some of the fines dished out to drug companies in the last few years. Merck lied about the safety of Vioxx and it killed 27,000 people. This earned them a $850 million fine and $5 billion in compensation. Trust the science? Trust your doctor? Not in this case.

So, is there a downside to the LGBT agenda? Absolutely! This can be seen by the draconian penalties served to silence all dissent. If you were brought up being taught that genetics and sex organs were the determining factors for gender and you stick by that science, it could cost you everything you have,

"Did you call a transsexual person “he” or “she” when they preferred to be called “zhe?” According to a newly updated anti-discrimination law in New York City, you could be fined an eye-watering $250,000.
In the latest, astonishing act of draconian political correctness, the NYC Commission on Human Rights have updated a law on “Discrimination on the Basis of Gender Identity or Expression” to threaten staggering financial penalties against property owners who “misgender” employees or tenants.
Incidents that are deemed “wilful and malicious” will see property owners face up to $250,000 in fines, while standard violations of the law will result in a $125,000 fine. For small business owners, these sums are crippling.

It’s not as simple as referring to transmen “he” or transwomen as “she,” either. The legislation makes it clear that if an individual desires, property owners will have to make use of “zhe,” “hir” and any other preferred pronoun. From the updated legislation:" http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/12/27...anssexual/

Anyone who is an advocate of free speech and freedom of thought should be deeply disturbed by this Nazi like behaviour.

Not sure what this has to do with what we were talking about....but ok...

I agree that such rules on the malicious intent of speech are against the generally upheld free speech, defended by the international bill of human rights... I'd be curious to see what happens if someone contests that in NY.

In order to uphold a penalty like that, you would have to rewrite all the biology books concerning the definition of gender. How could you fine someone 250k for insisting that the science books are correct and that people with gender dysphoria are incorrect? If the folks here are serious about science, how could they not view the re-defining of gender as completely unscientific?

(April 21, 2016 at 3:55 am)AJW333 Wrote:

(April 21, 2016 at 3:34 am)pocaracas Wrote: Not sure what this has to do with what we were talking about....but ok...

I agree that such rules on the malicious intent of speech are against the generally upheld free speech, defended by the international bill of human rights... I'd be curious to see what happens if someone contests that in NY.

In order to uphold a penalty like that, you would have to rewrite all the biology books concerning the definition of gender. How could you fine someone 250k for insisting that the science books are correct and that people with gender dysphoria are incorrect? If the folks here are serious about science, how could they not view the re-defining of gender as completely unscientific?

That's not what the penalty is about.
It's about doing it with a malicious intent.
I disagree that such a rule/law need to be in place, but gender dysphoria is a neurological, hence genetic, feature.
I find it very plausible that the gonad gender expression can be at odds with the neurological gender expression... I didn't look, but I'd wager that there are some credible studies on this discrepancy.

Given the difficulty in rearranging neurons and the availability of gender changing surgery, I don't see why that shouldn't be an option.

And, once the deed is done, the person shares both mental and physical genders.
I understand that this is not a feature found on the great majority of people, and that is why most people have an icky attitude towards it, but do try not to be disrespectful of those whose genes are at odds in certain places.

(April 21, 2016 at 4:15 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(April 21, 2016 at 3:55 am)AJW333 Wrote: In order to uphold a penalty like that, you would have to rewrite all the biology books concerning the definition of gender. How could you fine someone 250k for insisting that the science books are correct and that people with gender dysphoria are incorrect? If the folks here are serious about science, how could they not view the re-defining of gender as completely unscientific?

That's not what the penalty is about.
It's about doing it with a malicious intent.

But what if you're a scientist who simply detests non-science people messing with scientific truth? You can't even refuse these special titles for the transgendered on the basis of science. And what's with the draconian penalties for refusing to bend to the demands of a group of people making up less than 0.3% of the population?

(April 21, 2016 at 4:33 am)AJW333 Wrote:

(April 21, 2016 at 4:15 am)pocaracas Wrote: That's not what the penalty is about.
It's about doing it with a malicious intent.

But what if you're a scientist who simply detests non-science people messing with scientific truth? You can't even refuse these special titles for the transgendered on the basis of science.

Huh?

You look at a person and use the gender that they look like... Unless it's ambiguous and they've requested to be treated by a particular gender.
It's only polite.

(April 21, 2016 at 4:33 am)AJW333 Wrote: And what's with the draconian penalties for refusing to bend to the demands of a group of people making up less than 0.3% of the population?

I'm not in N.Y....I don't know what the rationale is for that rule. But it shouldn't be the fact that it only affects 0.3% of the population that would render a rule useless.
I guess it can be applied to "normal" people, as well...imagine if someone maliciously treats you by the opposite gender that you identify with (mentally and physically)... Would you like it?

(April 20, 2016 at 6:00 pm)robvalue Wrote: I keep thinking about this...

These people are supposedly studying actual science at an actual proper place. Let's assume that is true.

They have things that they think don't add up about evolution. Do they go and talk to the staff there? Do they go and seek any actual answers? That AAA guy admitted that he hadn't brought any of it up. So they're not interested in learning, to see if they might not understand it properly.

Instead, they turn up here at an atheist (not even science) forum, and write these questions as a "gotcha", as if there is no answer. If those questions are so stumping, why not present them at their university or whatever? And what do they hope to achieve, even if they did manage to stump a bunch of strangers on a forum?

Instead, the questions could be used to learn something. But they don't want to learn, they don't want the actual answer. They want us to say, "Yes you're right. You just busted evolution wide open. Care to insert your personal magical explanation in its place?"

1) I've pretty much demolished any pretention that Junk Status can make to being in a proper university teaching biology, of the seven possible institutions (catholic, Iowan) three have no biology programme and the other four teach biology from a scientific perspective, ie accept evolution.
2) People like Junk Status are too arrogant and too thick to keep schtum if they are in an actual classroom situation. There behaviour on sites like here are all too representative of their general demeanour, in my own experience.

Indeed.

Coming here is the equivalent of bullying a little kid to prove you're the best MMA fighter. That's not to say the scientists here aren't strong, they are very strong. But the perception of these guys is that we are a "little kid". They've come here because they think they can win. They don't take it to actual scientists because clearly they think they will lose.

The thing is, we do have actual scientists here. They just refuse to learn from them.

(April 21, 2016 at 2:50 am)Maelstrom Wrote: That makes no sense.

Like zero sense.

I'm only surprised that you seem surprised at this point.