I don't mean to be disrespectful to her, but the point is that vegans and other orthorexics often perceive diet to be a complete predictor for health - and that's not at all the case. Yes some health issues can be remedied by diet, but not all, and no diet is going to protect you from all possible harms of the environment. And further to that, there is of course no hard evidence that a vegan diet would be of equal quality for mountaineering athletes when compared with AGTHE/DASH/Mediterranean diet, or for that matter a well designed high-protein diet.

Actually Danny you are making a very good case for your point.  The only thing you are breezing over is that fanatics don't care about facts.... except the ones they are fanatical about.

I noticed a good question before I quit the thread, so I dropped in to answer:

Where you draw the line as a vegan is kind of a personal thing. For me, I don't eat honey because of the cruelty to and exploitation of bees. I don't eat anything with insects in it. (They're used for various things in food, people likely aren't even aware).

My morality extends as far as is practically possible into the animal kingdom. I don't subscribe to "might equals right" or "It's only a [different species to me], who cares?" I care. Instead I try even harder to look after the weaker and the more vulnerable.

And like any diet, you have to make sure you're getting everything you need. This can be done. If you don't do it, it's your fault, not a problem with being vegan. I went to "veg fest" in London last year, it was fucking awesome. The whole thing was completely vegan, and they had every kind of food style you could imagine. I'm happy to say it was teeming with people! Happy, healthy people. I hope to go again in the future.

If anyone has any more questions for me on this or related subjects, feel free to PM me. I'm not reading this thread as the way it's been going is likely to upset me. I'm not presuming to preach, I own all of this as my personal morality and opinion. I respect people's own decisions about how they live their lives.

(May 22, 2016 at 2:02 am)robvalue Wrote: And like any diet, you have to make sure you're getting everything you need. This can be done. If you don't do it, it's your fault, not a problem with being vegan. I went to "veg fest" in London last year, it was fucking awesome. The whole thing was completely vegan, and they had every kind of food style you could imagine. I'm happy to say it was teeming with people! Happy, healthy people. I hope to go again in the future.

That's incorrect, and the victim-blaming model of health is old and obsolete. I can show you information... in fact I will show you (source is here):







And that's just nutrients. Here's another hard fact:

Dieting is the single most important risk factor for developing an eating disorder. 68% of 15 year old females are on a diet, of these, 8% are severely dieting. Adolescent girls who diet only moderately, are five times more likely to develop an eating disorder than those who don't diet, and those who diet severely are 18 time more likely to develop an eating disorder.

Source:

So as you can see, during the period of bone growth (up to about 30 years of age) about 50% of the Australian population doesn't get enough calcium. A vegan diet only makes this worse, as no plant source is as bioavailable as dairy, and that includes 'soy milk' (from memory you'd need to consume 2-3x the amount in soy drinks compared with dairy to receive the same calcium). Calcium supplements are absolutely horrible to take, and as you see above with iron - many people don't get enough, and you clearly see iron supplementation does not fix it (greater than 10% of the population already on iron supplements!)

(May 21, 2016 at 1:37 am)ignoramus Wrote: I eat both. In equal portions.
And wash it down with diet coke.
I will live forever!   No afterlife necessary.

What, both vegetarians and vegans?

Cows are vegans?

(May 21, 2016 at 9:12 pm)Aractus Wrote: Breaking news: vegan dies while descending Mt Everest.

Eryk Bagshaw Wrote:Monash University lecturer Maria Strydom succumbed to altitude sickness and reportedly suffered a stroke and snow blindness while making her descent on Saturday.
...
A vegan, Dr Strydom was motivated to tackle Everest by challenging the diet's stereotypes.

"It seems that people have this warped idea of vegans being malnourished and weak," Dr Strydom said in March. "By climbing the seven summits we want to prove that vegans can do anything and more."

Update: their expedition is the first this year to suffer a fatality (2 fatalities so far), and Maria's husband is currently battling congestive heart failure. Also "Furtengi Sherpa, the Operational Manager of Seven Summit Treks, said that Dr Strydom had been battling illness as the final push began."

What I don't get is why anyone would argue or care about what other people choose to eat.

(May 22, 2016 at 2:59 am)Aractus Wrote:

(May 22, 2016 at 2:02 am)robvalue Wrote: And like any diet, you have to make sure you're getting everything you need. This can be done. If you don't do it, it's your fault, not a problem with being vegan. I went to "veg fest" in London last year, it was fucking awesome. The whole thing was completely vegan, and they had every kind of food style you could imagine. I'm happy to say it was teeming with people! Happy, healthy people. I hope to go again in the future.

That's incorrect, and the victim-blaming model of health is old and obsolete. I can show you information... in fact I will show you (source is here):







And that's just nutrients. Here's another hard fact:

Dieting is the single most important risk factor for developing an eating disorder. 68% of 15 year old females are on a diet, of these, 8% are severely dieting. Adolescent girls who diet only moderately, are five times more likely to develop an eating disorder than those who don't diet, and those who diet severely are 18 time more likely to develop an eating disorder.

Source:

So as you can see, during the period of bone growth (up to about 30 years of age) about 50% of the Australian population doesn't get enough calcium. A vegan diet only makes this worse, as no plant source is as bioavailable as dairy, and that includes 'soy milk' (from memory you'd need to consume 2-3x the amount in soy drinks compared with dairy to receive the same calcium). Calcium supplements are absolutely horrible to take, and as you see above with iron - many people don't get enough, and you clearly see iron supplementation does not fix it (greater than 10% of the population already on iron supplements!)

Women require more calcium and iron than men.

Here's what I see on the net but not in real life... I see people being asshats on both sides of this issue of veganism/vegetarianism/omnivores.

There are the holier-than-thou vegans/veggies and the egotistical omnivores duking it out over who's right, who's wrong, who's a better human being, who's not. BUT I only see this on the internet. Nowhere else.

I have a wide variety of friends and associate with a lot of atheist of every walk of life and I have NEVER heard them bickering about who eats what and why. Never! When atheist groups get together for a dinner we just as often go to vegan places to accommodate the enjoyment of our vegan friends. If anyone says anything about the vegan restaurants it's in jest and everyone has a great time.

When there are private parties and get-togethers nearly every non-vegan brings both a non-vegan and vegan offering for the evening. Never has any vegan/veggie not had as many or more options to eat than a non-vegan. Because we don't treat each other that way. We care and support each other regardless of our lifestyle or dietary differences.  This is because we have a variety of life experience and we VALUE the differences instead of choosing to segregate ourselves and harbor ill towards others that are different.

But here, on the net, like everywhere on the net be it social media of FaceBlock, Twitland, Tumbledown... or any other forum, there are the haters who hate everything and the arguers who love being contrarian just for the sake of.

So... IMO, it's not about vegan or non-vegan it's about social interaction. Most people on the net don't do that very well either and mostly because they aren't really held accountable for their actions. They can always close one personality/profile and just hop into another. Accountability is the key to all interactions.

Here are the facts:
Vegans can be healthy, but most are not because it takes an extreme amount of dedication to make it a success.
Omnivores can be healthy but most are not because it takes an extreme amount of dedication to make it a success.

That is the truth. At least for the USA. As for other cultures, YMMV.