(June 21, 2016 at 8:02 am)madog Wrote: I posted this in another thread, but it is pertinent as regards the story/message being told .... The story is rehashed from previous events in the storytellers lives, so they were most probably creating a church from rehashed history ...

This guy has a lot of good stuff, but this video covers some of the history that is relevant .... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzbp8ZiXpnc

---

Below is details of him on wiki ... if you want to check him out ... he has a doctorate in ancient history from Columbia University, etc ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Carrier

From 1:20-2:00, he makes the same logical fallacy that you have made. If God exists and wanted X, he would have brought it about by doing Y. Not Y, therefore God did not want X. I don't think Richard Carrier, although he earned a PhD, is engaging in a serious scholarly analysis of the data.

"History, just in the big picture, already refutes all religions, right? If there was any god-based religion, god would consistently be talking to people with the same message, the same belief system" -Richard Carrier beginning @ 2:04

Where does he get that? Why does he conclude that? History? Science? What?

(June 21, 2016 at 7:04 am)Ignorant Wrote:

(June 20, 2016 at 10:16 am)madog Wrote: Freely going into a situation with fore knowledge that it will kill you is still suicide, if there is another option.... A train may have killed you but putting yourself in a position where it will hit you is suicide ....

This is what I was talking about. If I have to accept that definition to discuss this topic... then the game is rigged. Doesn't seem like you're open to a discussion about it.
 

Why is it rigged? I consider freely going into a situation with foreknowledge you will be killed is suicide. This is what my contention is ... The rest is just stuff tacked on as you think it shows something different ....

If you agree "Jesus" had a choice tell me why that is not suicide?

And remember you have agreed to consider Jesus as an ordinary man .... has that changed? I need to know before answering the rest of your answers/questions ....

(June 21, 2016 at 8:40 am)madog Wrote:

(June 21, 2016 at 7:04 am)Ignorant Wrote: This is what I was talking about. If I have to accept that definition to discuss this topic... then the game is rigged. Doesn't seem like you're open to a discussion about it.
 

Why is it rigged? I consider freely going into a situation with foreknowledge you will be killed is suicide. [1] This is what my contention is ... The rest is just stuff tacked on as you think it shows something different ....

If you agree "Jesus" had a choice tell me why that is not suicide?

And remember you have agreed to consider Jesus as an ordinary man [2].. has that changed? I need to know before answering the rest of your answers/questions ....

1) Look up a definition of suicide. Then look up a definition of self-sacrifice. Compare and contrast.

It is rigged if your definition is too general and formulated in such a way to secure your conclusion. If I accept your definition, then I must also accept that self-sacrifice is a specific KIND of suicide. I think there is an essential difference. If you aren't willing to budge on the definition, then there is no discussion.

2) When did I agree to consider Jesus as an ordinary man within the apostle's story? I can agree to hypothetically consider Jesus as an ordinary man from a historical perspective, but not to consider him as an ordinary man as he appears within the gospel narrative (which clear portrays him a extraordinary and even divine).

(June 22, 2016 at 6:41 am)Ignorant Wrote: 1) Look up a definition of suicide. Then look up a definition of self-sacrifice. Compare and contrast.

It is rigged if your definition is too general and formulated in such a way to secure your conclusion. If I accept your definition, then I must also accept that self-sacrifice is a specific KIND of suicide. I think there is an essential difference. If you aren't willing to budge on the definition, then there is no discussion.

2) When did I agree to consider Jesus as an ordinary man within the apostle's story? I can agree to hypothetically consider Jesus as an ordinary man from a historical perspective, but not to consider him as an ordinary man as he appears within the gospel narrative (which clear portrays him a extraordinary and even divine).

1) Suicide ... the intentional taking of one's own life.

OK ... can we agree with this definition? if so:

the question is whether you can agree that taking your own life by putting yourself in a position that will knowingly lead to your own death is suicide?

Self sacrifice ... sacrifice of oneself or one's interest for others or for a cause or ideal

can we agree with this definitions? if so:

Do you believe that someone that takes their own life believing it to be a sacrifice excludes it from also be considered suicide?

Example: if a man/woman takes their own life in the interest of others, such as to allow their children to recieve an insurance payout .... That is clearly a "self sacrifice", does that mean it is not also suicide? 

By the way I am not trying to get you to "accept that self-sacrifice is a specific KIND of suicide" I am just saying that "self sacrifice" and "suicide" are not mutually exclusive .... 

2) I will need to look again at the rest of your arguments now you admit you will consider "Jesus" as a man or the "son of God" depending on whether it proves your point

(June 22, 2016 at 8:08 am)madog Wrote: 1) Suicide ... the intentional taking of one's own life.

OK ... can we agree with this definition? [1] if so:

the question is whether you can agree that taking your own life by putting yourself in a position that will knowingly lead to your own death is suicide? [2]

Self sacrifice ... sacrifice of oneself or one's interest for others or for a cause or ideal

can we agree with this definitions? [3] if so: 

Do you believe that someone that takes their own life believing it to be a sacrifice excludes it from also be considered suicide? [4]

Example: if a man/woman takes their own life in the interest of others, such as to allow their children to recieve an insurance payout .... That is clearly a "self sacrifice", does that mean it is not also suicide? [5]

By the way I am not trying to get you to "accept that self-sacrifice is a specific KIND of suicide" I am just saying that "self sacrifice" and "suicide" are not mutually exclusive .... [6]

2) I will need to look again at the rest of your arguments now you admit you will consider "Jesus" as a man or the "son of God" depending on whether it proves your point [7]

1) Yes. Notice two key concepts (one present, one absent): 1) present - "taking life"; 2) absent - the reason for the act

2) Can you not hear the dissonance in this proposal? 'Taking-your-own-life' VS. 'Knowingly-putting-yourself-in-a-position-that-will-lead-to-your-own-death' <= You really have to strain the latter one to leave room for suicide don't you? 

Clearly, people who take their own lives "knowingly put themselves in a position" in which they can take their own life. NOT everyone who "knowingly puts themselves in a position that will lead to their own death" commits suicide. 

3) No. Using the word "sacrifice" in a definition of self-sacrifice is an inadequate way to define something. How about this:

"Giving/offering something of your own for others or for a cause or ideal"

Notice two key concepts, both present: 1) "giving something to someone"; 2) the reason for the giving

4) Maybe. If by "take their own life" you mean they actually kill themselves, then it is difficult to call it sacrifice.

5) See #3, and 4. In this same scenario, what is being "given", to whom, and how?

6) I think they are mutually exclusive.

7) Yes, I would recommend re-reading my posts, considering I have very explicitly described the contexts in which I am willing to consider Jesus as a merely ordinary man or as the divine man the gospel narratives portray him as. Let me summarize for you:

When discussing the internal and intended MEANING of the gospel text and its implications according to that internal meaning, we should consider Jesus as those authors of those texts considered him => Jesus is the Son of God

When discussing Jesus in the context of the historical transmission of the message attributed to him, I am willing to consider Jesus as historical science should => Jesus is simply a man.

It isn't that hard. If Jesus was simply a man, that does not exclude the possibility that such a mere man had followers who authentically believed him to be a divine man, the Son of God. It does not exclude the possibility that they would write about it. When you read what they wrote, you can simultaneously hold that Jesus was merely a man AND hold that his disciples thought he was a divine man, the Son of God.

Oh, boy. I've about had it up to here with atheists trying to appear edgy with innovative ways of making fun of Christians while ostensibly trying to appear innocous. If you could even imagine the level of stupidity and mediocrity that reveals in my eyes... Not to mention the utter boredom and disgust it provokes in me.

(June 29, 2016 at 1:37 pm)Ignorant Wrote:

(June 22, 2016 at 8:08 am)madog Wrote: 1) Suicide ... the intentional taking of one's own life.

OK ... can we agree with this definition? [1] if so:

the question is whether you can agree that taking your own life by putting yourself in a position that will knowingly lead to your own death is suicide? [2]

Self sacrifice ... sacrifice of oneself or one's interest for others or for a cause or ideal

can we agree with this definitions? [3] if so: 

Do you believe that someone that takes their own life believing it to be a sacrifice excludes it from also be considered suicide? [4]

Example: if a man/woman takes their own life in the interest of others, such as to allow their children to recieve an insurance payout .... That is clearly a "self sacrifice", does that mean it is not also suicide? [5]

By the way I am not trying to get you to "accept that self-sacrifice is a specific KIND of suicide" I am just saying that "self sacrifice" and "suicide" are not mutually exclusive .... [6]

2) I will need to look again at the rest of your arguments now you admit you will consider "Jesus" as a man or the "son of God" depending on whether it proves your point [7]

1) Yes. Notice two key concepts (one present, one absent): 1) present - "taking life"; 2) absent - the reason for the act

2) Can you not hear the dissonance in this proposal? 'Taking-your-own-life' VS. 'Knowingly-putting-yourself-in-a-position-that-will-lead-to-your-own-death' <= You really have to strain the latter one to leave room for suicide don't you? 

Clearly, people who take their own lives "knowingly put themselves in a position" in which they can take their own life. NOT everyone who "knowingly puts themselves in a position that will lead to their own death" commits suicide. 

3) No. Using the word "sacrifice" in a definition of self-sacrifice is an inadequate way to define something. How about this:

"Giving/offering something of your own for others or for a cause or ideal"

Notice two key concepts, both present: 1) "giving something to someone"; 2) the reason for the giving

4) Maybe. If by "take their own life" you mean they actually kill themselves, then it is difficult to call it sacrifice.

5) See #3, and 4. In this same scenario, what is being "given", to whom, and how?

6) I think they are mutually exclusive.

7) Yes, I would recommend re-reading my posts, considering I have very explicitly described the contexts in which I am willing to consider Jesus as a merely ordinary man or as the divine man the gospel narratives portray him as. Let me summarize for you:

When discussing the internal and intended MEANING of the gospel text and its implications according to that internal meaning, we should consider Jesus as those authors of those texts considered him => Jesus is the Son of God

When discussing Jesus in the context of the historical transmission of the message attributed to him, I am willing to consider Jesus as historical science should => Jesus is simply a man.

It isn't that hard. If Jesus was simply a man, that does not exclude the possibility that such a mere man had followers who authentically believed him to be a divine man, the Son of God. It does not exclude the possibility that they would write about it. When you read what they wrote, you can simultaneously hold that Jesus was merely a man AND hold that his disciples thought he was a divine man, the Son of God.

Sorry for late reply been busy.

1) Mmm, can't just say yes (mine was a dictionary definition) 
 

2) No ... Its all dependent on intent ... Standing in front of a train or to knowingly indulge in a more elaborate chain of events to cause your own death is still suicide ....  

When someone throws themselves on a grenade their intention isn't usually to die. If it was their intention to die, even if it was to save an imaginary comrade I would still consider it suicide.


3) (mine was a dictionary definition again) not happy with just reinterpreting the bible now its dictionaries 

4) Eh? If you walk in front of a bus with the intention of dying its suicide ... even though the bus driver and his/her bus killed you, they are not mutually exclusive ...

5) The insurance payout is being given to the child ... don't get pedantic again, you know what I mean.

{NEW EXAMPLE} OK .. If a woman shoots herself so her child gets her heart for transplant, is that self-sacrifice?
 
6) I disagree and refer to the new example above ...

But according to you as Jesus knowingly gave his life (killed himself by roman cop) he doesn't even qualify as a self sacrifice?

7) I can read accounts from those trying to create a religion with the pinch of salt the stories deserve.

A man ... If he existed ... accidentally overstepped his hippy teachings and ended up being crucified and was probably pissed off .... 

Those trying to build a church on a story or the unfortunate demise of a hippy wrote a story that turned him into a suicide victim by stating his intention was to die on the cross.

If you accept the story as fiction, he was arguably not a suicide victim ... (as I would accept the story line, the same as vampires in Dracula)

If you insist the worldly events as historical fact, with no empirical evidence that he was the son of God, it was suicide in my opinion ...

(June 29, 2016 at 1:46 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: Oh, boy. I've about had it up to here with atheists trying to appear edgy with innovative ways of making fun of Christians while ostensibly trying to appear innocous. If you could even imagine the level of stupidity and mediocrity that reveals in my eyes... Not to mention the utter boredom and disgust it provokes in me.

Fuck off, and go and play in an xtian forum 

(July 6, 2016 at 8:34 pm)madog Wrote:

(June 29, 2016 at 1:46 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: Oh, boy. I've about had it up to here with atheists trying to appear edgy with innovative ways of making fun of Christians while ostensibly trying to appear innocous. If you could even imagine the level of stupidity and mediocrity that reveals in my eyes... Not to mention the utter boredom and disgust it provokes in me.

Fuck off, and go and play in an xtian forum 

You just can't reason logically with theists even though their book says one thing they interpret it as another. 
By the books own words jesus did commit suicide by authority and the believer try's to mend it to say something else entirely. 
To put it like so god is a all knowing asshole knows he will die goes and impregnates girl (not woman) lives a full life
foresakes his own self because god no longer exists while he is in human form and dies then for 3 whole days god is literally dead. 
At literally any point he could have even before getting crucified did some magical bullshit to stop them like he did for moses and the snake stick.
But you know theists would say jesus still would have had to die and i think the whole blood sacrifice is still stupid and well redundant.
That being said in this modern era jesus died for nothing we are more morally superior to those who lived in the supposed times of jesus were not
barbarians were highly civilized people compared to back then.

Yes if you count suicide by cop suicide, but officially no.