Okay, I'm going to try to explain this as best I can as it's a new argument I've seen cropped up and I kind of like it if only for the fact it involved thinking outside the box for a change.

Basically, while talking about the 'Perfect God' conundrum, one proposed the idea that God didn't purposely create the known universe, but its existence simply allows it to be created and exist by being, and since it does not need or want it has no reason to end existence due to its omnibenevolent nature.

In short? God accidentally the universe!

Now the problem lies in the fact this is still working on the basis of God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, and since I literally just got out of a conversation where it was explained to me how contradictory/impossible objects cannot exist, if it's then suggested that the universe exists due to God's existence, then the universe cannot exist because this god cannot exist, and the mere fact that our universe does exist proves that said god does not exist.

So... checkmate?

Anyone ever seen this argument proposed before? I don't know if it was ever brought up here or not.

(June 26, 2016 at 4:58 am)Ayen Wrote: Okay, I'm going to try to explain this as best I can as it's a new argument I've seen cropped up and I kind of like it if only for the fact it involved thinking outside the box for a change.

Basically, while talking about the 'Perfect God' conundrum, one proposed the idea that God didn't purposely create the known universe, but its existence simply allows it to be created and exist by being, and since it does not need or want it has no reason to end existence due to its omnibenevolent nature.

In short? God accidentally the universe!

Now the problem lies in the fact this is still working on the basis of God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, and since I literally just got out of a conversation where it was explained to me how contradictory/impossible objects cannot exist, if it's then suggested that the universe exists due to God's existence, then the universe cannot exist because this god cannot exist, and the mere fact that our universe does exist proves that said god does not exist.

So... checkmate?

Anyone ever seen this argument proposed before? I don't know if it was ever brought up here or not.

I feel like there is a logical mismatch between divine omniscience and divine accidents ... unless the accident was inevitable and there was nothing logical that God could do to prevent it?

Anyway, the whole idea of having God in the first place (as the Creator, that is) is not only logically problematic but illogical. Way less problematic to stick to the godless alternative: the ultimate universe has always been (with or without some God coexisting with it).

I think the Universe is a pimple on the arse of a homosexual unicorn that was made by Satan out of spite after he was rejected by God.

under construction

(June 26, 2016 at 5:22 am)Alex K Wrote: under construction

not another universe!
OK, hit us with it.... who's arse this time?

If a god made the universe (that is everything that exists) where was he/it before he made it? (heaven does not count because that must be included in "everything that exists"

(June 26, 2016 at 6:40 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: If a god made the universe (that is everything that exists) where was he/it before he made it?  (heaven does not count because that must be included in "everything that exists"

In the realm of the illogical.

(June 26, 2016 at 4:58 am)Ayen Wrote: Okay, I'm going to try to explain this as best I can as it's a new argument I've seen cropped up and I kind of like it if only for the fact it involved thinking outside the box for a change.

Basically, while talking about the 'Perfect God' conundrum, one proposed the idea that God didn't purposely create the known universe, but its existence simply allows it to be created and exist by being, and since it does not need or want it has no reason to end existence due to its omnibenevolent nature.

In short? God accidentally the universe!

Now the problem lies in the fact this is still working on the basis of God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, and since I literally just got out of a conversation where it was explained to me how contradictory/impossible objects cannot exist, if it's then suggested that the universe exists due to God's existence, then the universe cannot exist because this god cannot exist, and the mere fact that our universe does exist proves that said god does not exist.

So... checkmate?

Anyone ever seen this argument proposed before? I don't know if it was ever brought up here or not.

I've never seen this argument before. But, it seems to me that if the universe is a byproduct (as suggested by your title), then one would need to know the product that was being created that lead to the byproduct. And, maybe, who the creator was of the original product might also need to be known.

I don't think the word "byproduct" in your title would be the correct word for what is proposed.


Maybe the rest of the post needs to be clarified for me, because the idea of 'Perfect God' is merely a reflection of the measurement of mankind as imperfect and an imagined ideal condition of mankind imposed on a godform.

Obviously, a perfectly powerful, benevolent god would not simply overlook a universe he has accidentally created and let almost everyone in it get screwed in the most cruel ways, simply because of an oversight. That renders the "argument" so ad absurdum that I'm not surprised I have never encountered it.

"Byproduct" ??

Are we implying the universe is a turd ??