(October 4, 2016 at 11:08 pm)Emjay Wrote:

(October 4, 2016 at 11:03 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: First option, ofc. That's a no-brainer.

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Would you rather have 10 billion people leading a maximally happy life or 100 trillion ones leading just barely meaningful and fulfilling enough lives not to want to kill themselves?

The first definitely... quality over quantity. But my ideal goes even further back than that to zero people living a phenomenally conscious life... because all conscious life is suffering IMO... so my ideal is a world of philosophical zombies... the non-existence of phenomenal consciousness.

That's sad... No wrong answer with thought experiments, of course, but I still think your ideal is kind of sad. Hope you don't mind.

(October 4, 2016 at 5:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:Would you rather go to Mars one way or to an uninhabited remote but fertile pacific island for the rest of your life?

I'd take the island, hands down.  I'm no Matt Damon.

Would you rather euthanize your own pet (out of necessity) or take an all-expenses paid three weeks long holiday in Majorca?


Boru

I'll euthanize my pet. It will make me so depressed and guilty over choosing that fate that I will then work my whole life towards ending pet misery all over the world.

(October 4, 2016 at 9:57 pm)Arkilogue Wrote:

(October 4, 2016 at 7:27 pm)Emjay Wrote: Electric chair... it might even be a buzz (pun intended)... who knows but maybe one quick hallucinogenic trip and you're gone. Better that I think that than probably suffocating or whatever with gas.

Death by jumping into lava or jumping into acid?

Lava, and pray I have enough velocity to penetrate something the consistency of wet cement. Much faster death.

Would you rather be the last physical person left on earth or exist as an intangible ghost on a populated earth?

Be the last person. I, of course, have no idea whether I would get mad or after how long, but it still seems better than having the prize in front of my eyes and never being able to achieve it. I mean sure, if such things as ghosts exist, you could reason that there must be a way out, and you could pray that way out is the Winchesters making you move on to heaven and then you overtaking it and forcing the angels to get you back home... In that case, I'd choose to be a ghost. But I wouldn't know, so maybe not after all.

It seems to me that given enough time and resources one could recreate the human species somehow.

(October 4, 2016 at 11:12 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(October 4, 2016 at 11:08 pm)Emjay Wrote: The first definitely... quality over quantity. But my ideal goes even further back than that to zero people living a phenomenally conscious life... because all conscious life is suffering IMO... so my ideal is a world of philosophical zombies... the non-existence of phenomenal consciousness.

That's sad... No wrong answer with thought experiments, of course, but I still think your ideal is kind of sad. Hope you don't mind.

Yeah, I know it's sad... but it just doesn't make any sense to me it existing in the first place because in my view as a 'functionalist epiphenomenalist' it's entirely impotent... so it seems to me that all over the world, for millions of years, there have been all these consciousnesses, all experiencing their own pain and suffering, needlessly. A philosophical zombie would behave exactly the same way... the world would be exactly the same as it is now... there would be the same effects of and responses to pain, but no pain would be felt.

(October 4, 2016 at 11:22 pm)Emjay Wrote:

(October 4, 2016 at 11:12 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: That's sad... No wrong answer with thought experiments, of course, but I still think your ideal is kind of sad. Hope you don't mind.

Yeah, I know it's sad... but it just doesn't make any sense to me it existing in the first place because in my view as a 'functionalist epiphenomenalist' it's entirely impotent... so it seems to me that all over the world, for millions of years, there have been all these consciousnesses, all experiencing their own pain and suffering, needlessly. A philosophical zombie would behave exactly the same way... the world would be exactly the same as it is now... there would be the same effects of and responses to pain, but no pain would be felt.

The pain would still be felt, it's just that no one would be there to feel it. You're describing a world where the lights haven't gone on. It's practically inexistence. This world is only real because it is real to us. Otherwise, it's nothingness for its own sake.

I don't see how that's an improvement. Personally, I would prefer to exist no matter what, so long as I know there's a way up somewhere down the road.

(October 4, 2016 at 11:27 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(October 4, 2016 at 11:22 pm)Emjay Wrote: Yeah, I know it's sad... but it just doesn't make any sense to me it existing in the first place because in my view as a 'functionalist epiphenomenalist' it's entirely impotent... so it seems to me that all over the world, for millions of years, there have been all these consciousnesses, all experiencing their own pain and suffering, needlessly. A philosophical zombie would behave exactly the same way... the world would be exactly the same as it is now... there would be the same effects of and responses to pain, but no pain would be felt.

The pain would still be felt, it's just that no one would be there to feel it. You're describing a world where the lights haven't gone on. It's practically inexistence. This world is only real because it is real to us. Otherwise, it's nothingness for its own sake.

I don't see how that's an improvement. Personally, I would prefer to exist no matter what, so long as I know there's a way up somewhere down the road.

True, it would be felt in psychological consciousness whatever form that took, but not phenomenally. Yeah I am saying nothingness... just atoms doing their clockwork universey thing but with no observers there to see it. To me it's an improvement because there are exactly the same behavioural effects as a philosophical zombie, eg I'm born at the same time etc... still type on this forum, but without any experiential components... so it would be pointless from the perspective of an observer, except in that world there wouldn't even be one to make that call. But I know I'm probably in a minority of one with this view... so I understand your view, but for me I didn't ask to exist and I'd rather I didn't, nor can I understand why I do.

(October 4, 2016 at 11:44 pm)Emjay Wrote:

(October 4, 2016 at 11:27 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: The pain would still be felt, it's just that no one would be there to feel it. You're describing a world where the lights haven't gone on. It's practically inexistence. This world is only real because it is real to us. Otherwise, it's nothingness for its own sake.

I don't see how that's an improvement. Personally, I would prefer to exist no matter what, so long as I know there's a way up somewhere down the road.

True, it would be felt in psychological consciousness whatever form that took, but not phenomenally. Yeah I am saying nothingness... just atoms doing their clockwork universey thing but with no observers there to see it. To me it's an improvement because there are exactly the same behavioural effects as a philosophical zombie, eg I'm born at the same time etc... still type on this forum, but without any experiential components... so it would be pointless from the perspective of an observer, except in that world there wouldn't even be one to make that call. But I know I'm probably in a minority of one with this view... so I understand your view, but for me I didn't ask to exist and I'd rather I didn't, nor can I understand why I do.

But what you don't seem to understand is this is the same as talking about nothingness. The moment you start describing such an universe where no consciousness exists, you introduce yourself as an observer in that same universe, even if it is merely an idea and not something externally observed at this point. If you don't talk about it, then it doesn't exist. Existence is predicated on an observer. Without an observer, there can be no existence. There can be no talk of existence. Existence is an idea. Everything is.

(October 4, 2016 at 11:56 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(October 4, 2016 at 11:44 pm)Emjay Wrote: True, it would be felt in psychological consciousness whatever form that took, but not phenomenally. Yeah I am saying nothingness... just atoms doing their clockwork universey thing but with no observers there to see it. To me it's an improvement because there are exactly the same behavioural effects as a philosophical zombie, eg I'm born at the same time etc... still type on this forum, but without any experiential components... so it would be pointless from the perspective of an observer, except in that world there wouldn't even be one to make that call. But I know I'm probably in a minority of one with this view... so I understand your view, but for me I didn't ask to exist and I'd rather I didn't, nor can I understand why I do.

But what you don't seem to understand is this is the same as talking about nothingness. The moment you start describing such an universe where no consciousness exists, you introduce yourself as an observer in that same universe, even if it is merely an idea and not something externally observed at this point. If you don't talk about it, then it doesn't exist. Existence is predicated on an observer. Without an observer, there can be no existence. There can be no talk of existence. Existence is an idea. Everything is.

Oh right... I think I see. I know there's no way I could be in such a universe... observing its nothingness... I wouldn't exist in the phenomenal sense to make that observation. I don't know what else to say really... my ideal universe wouldn't have me there to comment on it. Nonetheless it is my ideal, even if it's some sort of paradox for me to imagine it.

If the torture was going to last any significant length of time, then kill me. Please kill me instead. I can stand a lot, but I can't stand that.

(October 4, 2016 at 7:39 pm)Emjay Wrote:

(October 4, 2016 at 2:30 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Take it from one who knows - you really don't want the former.

Do tell

Here you go. I warn you, though, it's not pleasant reading (though more pleasant than the experience).