(March 22, 2017 at 9:44 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Overall religions advocate to submit to God, so 1-3 proves that the claim we ought to submit to God to be true.

No, that's just a control tactic used by religious leaders.

Not all religions teach that, either.  The old Norse religion, for instance, focuses on behaving in an honourable manner.  No submission at all is required (and in fact such submissiveness is considered a shameful thing to do), although the Æsir and Vanir do appreciate being invited to parties and offered food and drink.

(March 22, 2017 at 9:44 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 22, 2017 at 3:51 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Ok, so that proves hinduism is true by your definition, right MK?

Overall religions advocate to submit to God, so 1-3 proves that the claim we ought to submit to God to be true. So it proves in general, then the premises get more specific as to why 12ver Shiism is the correct one.

Simply advocating something doesn't make it true, and 1-3 are the claims (well, they are more like incoherent ramblings, but for arguments sake let's acknowledge it as claim), claims don't prove themselves, no matter how much you narrow them down. The claims that you think prove islam, I can provide similar "proof/claim" from hinduism, and hinduism being much older and broader has much more vague bs than islam. You need to realize philosophical ideas aren't proof of anything, and neither is the language or method you use to assert those claims. If you truly believe in the divine, ask the divine to convince the heathens here, and if that fails, please consider the remote possibility that maybe you are wrong.

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(March 22, 2017 at 11:08 am)Astreja Wrote: although the Æsir and Vanir do appreciate being invited to parties and offered food and drink.

hmm.. I like that religion, but the names are lame... I'll pass

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(March 22, 2017 at 12:37 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Secularism exists because the followers of Abrahamic religions got into a hairy spot. So people got frustrated, and illumination became a fact.
With religions of this size, holes are easily taken advantage of. Who cares about the Quran when you got 16000 Hadiths?

That's why places like the Middle East have grudges that never are quenched, if somebody's religion is hate that is 1400 years old, or 2000 years old or heck: more; how is there any hopes for peace?

They will keep fighting forever.

The founding "prophet" tried peace, failed utterly, then moved on to violence, why would the followers be any peaceful?

I agree. The argument for Islam is simple.

Simple minded, and I don't buy it...

(March 22, 2017 at 2:41 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(March 22, 2017 at 12:30 am)MysticKnight Wrote: There are plenty of threads discussing proofs of God.

This about proof of Islam.

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I wrote in a way, you can stop early and religion is already proven. For example, you can go 1-3, and that would be enough to prove Islam.

You keep telling yourself that.

He will. Positive reenforcement and all that...

Proof for Islam?

I believe in Islam. It exists. There is conclusive proof for this everywhere.

What I don't believe is Islam's message.

(March 22, 2017 at 4:08 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Proof for Islam?

I believe in Islam.  It exists.  There is conclusive proof for this everywhere.

What I don't believe is Islam's message.

You don't believe but it has nothing to do with it not being proven. It has been proven.

You simply don't believe because you don't want to.

(March 22, 2017 at 11:25 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You don't believe but it has nothing to do with it not being proven. It has been proven.

You simply don't believe because you don't want to.

Simply restating that it has been proven hundreds of times does not make it so.

(March 22, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote:

(March 22, 2017 at 9:44 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Overall religions advocate to submit to God, so 1-3 proves that the claim we ought to submit to God to be true. So it proves in general, then the premises get more specific as to why 12ver Shiism is the correct one.

Simply advocating something doesn't make it true, and 1-3 are the claims (well, they are more like incoherent ramblings, but for arguments sake let's acknowledge it as claim), claims don't prove themselves, no matter how much you narrow them down. The claims that you think prove islam, I can provide similar "proof/claim" from hinduism, and hinduism being much older and broader has much more vague bs than islam. You need to realize philosophical ideas aren't proof of anything, and neither is the language or method you use to assert those claims. If you truly believe in the divine, ask the divine to convince the heathens here, and if that fails, please consider the remote possibility that maybe you are wrong.

1-3 are claims but they are intuitive and manifest and can easily be elaborated on and proven.

Which claim do you find doubtful? Or at least pick the one you think is weakest of the three.

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(March 22, 2017 at 11:27 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(March 22, 2017 at 11:25 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You don't believe but it has nothing to do with it not being proven. It has been proven.

You simply don't believe because you don't want to.

Simply restating that it has been proven hundreds of times does not make it so.

I know that, so maybe you should tell yourself and others, denying God and proofs for him, doesn't mean anything.