'Remember the Eleventh Commandment and keep it wholly.' - Variously ascribed, but I lean towards Bierce.

Boru

Surprising our religiousites haven't advocated the definitive version of the 10 Commandments:

When asked which ones to keep, Christ (remember Him, cuz sometimes I get the impression modern era followers are getting fuzzy on the idea of having a Lord and Savior) only listed 6 of them.

Seems like for the ACTUAL TRUE BELIEVERS, that list would be the definitive answer to the question.




Period.





BTW, obviously, I'm missing something, but what, pray tell ???

I suspect we can sum it up in three words:

Tradition trumps Text.

If it turns out a hallowed tradition actually gets its own texts wrong, in practice, the tradition tends to get priority, so they can just create some Wallenda-level mental gymnastics to justify that And claim they were right all along, even if the texts they claim to use as a basis for it don't actually support it.

(April 14, 2017 at 8:03 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Surprising our religiousites haven't advocated the definitive version of the 10 Commandments:

When asked which ones to keep, Christ (remember Him, cuz sometimes I get the impression modern era followers are getting fuzzy on the idea of having a Lord and Savior) only listed 6 of them.

Seems like for the  ACTUAL TRUE BELIEVERS, that list would be the definitive answer to the question.




Period.





BTW, obviously, I'm missing something, but what, pray tell ???

Matthew 5:17. Anybody who doesn't keep to all 600+ toranic commandments isn't a true christian.

But why didn't Jesus list all 10 Commandments when asked !!!!


Wait just a cotton picking minute, we have a fatal run error in Christianity, don't we ?


OMG !!!

(April 14, 2017 at 10:54 am)yampampuza Wrote: there is a video of the late Christopher Hitchens interview by VANITY FAIR magazine (link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9weXGtCk7c ).
in the first 30 seconds Hitchens say Moses was a revisionist that issued at least 4 versions of the decalogue (10 commandments) which is mind-blowing !
but what are they ??

The original 10 going by biblical canon doesn't exist because they were destroyed but modern christians think otherwise
but yeah they don't exist canon wise. Because moses was like fuck these tablets.

(April 14, 2017 at 4:15 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='1541030' dateline='1492192120']

Exodus 34: (The covenant of God)
10 Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
17 “Do not make any idols.
18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.[b] 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God.
25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.
26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.
“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Get it???

This is not a list of the 10 commandments This is a covenant who contains some of the commandments and adds other stipulations!

This is God 'selling' his will to the people. Do this (Which includes the 10 commandments) and you will get this in return.

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How does it feel to have one of your greatest atheistic mind crumble before the first verse.. meaning How stupid is hitch for calling this a revision of the 10 commandments when clearly in the first line God Himself identifies what follows to be a covenant???

Quote:I can't help but notice verse 28 actually calls it "The Ten Commandments",

Why don't you also wander up to verse 27 where he first identifies your commandments as being apart of a greater covenant in exo 34.

Quote:but that neither the versions in Exodus 20 and Deutoronomy 5 are called "The Ten Commandments." They are called commandments (and Jewish tradition states that Jahweh gave Moses a total of 613, all of which appear in the Torah [the first five books], which is why simply being called commandments is not enough), and can easily be grouped into groups of ten, but, despite the fact that the Israelites latched onto the other set, they are never called the Ten Commandments in the actual Torah. Meanwhile, the version in Exodus 34, the less familiar one, actually is called "The Ten Commandments." See for youself.

Ahhh... No.

The "comandments" are set apart from the law of moses as the were pronounced From a dense cloud appearing before moses putting everyone into a panic. They are COMMANDMENTS Because By God's Hand and voice where these things Commanded (Exo 19 and 20) to the people of isreal, and as such there were only 10 of them. hence 10 commandments.

Chapter 21 starts the 613 points of the mosaic LAW. Which again where not commandments. As moses Handed down the law. Rather than let god shout out the law while 6 million people pooped themselves collectively, the 6 million were given 10 direct examles of the Commands of God, and moses took down the rest in a private 'meeting.'

Quote:You will notice that I decided to play your "large letters with bold text" game with that specific passage. I just wanted to make sure you weren't missing anything this time around, like you did when you posted it just now. And just so you decided to miss the connection, I added some italics that connect the covenant with the Ten Commandments.

Nice.. now just go back to the beginning of what I said and plug in the relationship between the covenant and commandment.

Commandment= do don't do by God's own word. Covenant God says do/don't do (command) in exchange for...

So in essence God incentivizes his commandments.

God: I promise __________ if you do not ___________

Or ore specifically "Honor your father and mother and you will have a long life.
Do not have any other God before me and I will make this nation invincible before all others...

Do you see yes you get commandments, but not for the purpose of just providing you a list. You are getting a covenant or a list of incentives that just so happen include the commandments plus a couple other points.

The fact that it is not a direct copy of the exo 20 list and the fact that there is a list of incentives associated with the list of commands makes this a covenant. a tit for tat. rather than a rule book.

Quote:Knowing you, I can't expect it will sink in, since you've clearly spent so much time focusing on those two, but you can't say I didn't explain exactly why I don't buy your claim.

like wise, I am sure you are going to ignore the subtle differences between exo 20 and 34 despite God himself proclaiming the following (exo 34) was meant to be understood as a covenant between Himself and the Jewish people.

IF you still can see past the commandment part Ask yourself why doesn't exo 20 not reference the "covenant" if 34 is supposed to be a simple chapter 20 style list.

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(April 14, 2017 at 8:03 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Surprising our religiousites haven't advocated the definitive version of the 10 Commandments:

When asked which ones to keep, Christ (remember Him, cuz sometimes I get the impression modern era followers are getting fuzzy on the idea of having a Lord and Savior) only listed 6 of them.

Seems like for the  ACTUAL TRUE BELIEVERS, that list would be the definitive answer to the question.




Period.





BTW, obviously, I'm missing something, but what, pray tell ???

Atonement.

With atonement the whole law stands in effect, not just the do's and don'ts. This means the part of the law that was establish to atone for sin is also 'full filled.' Meaning as sin abound then so to does grace and forgiveness abound.

Which makes the commandments obsolete as a means to determining righteousness.

Why? because only the sin free nature, of atonement can be found righteous.

So what do then become of the law does it go away?

No, nothing in the law changes, everything about the law remains even the do's and dont's. We (Christians) simply exist in a perpetual state of Grace/forgiveness, while those outside of Christ will be judged by the law.

So nothing ends nothing goes anywhere, it's just the whole law works rather than just the law of sin and punishment.

uh . . . .


wut ?

(April 17, 2017 at 2:55 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: uh . . .  .


wut ?

Evidently Drich has an absurdly strict definition of "commandment." Apparently, if God promises something in return for following specific rules he lays out, it's a covenant, not a Commandment. He didn't explain why a covenant cannot contain commandments, especially given that a commandment is by definition "a divine rule". Presumably, by the exact logic he gives forth, the commandment to honor one's parents isn't a commandment because God promises a long life to those who follow it: “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you." (Ex. 20:12)

And somehow, the other 603 rules He gave Moses don't count, either, because shut up.

And, for the record, I'm going to try and parse Exodus 34:27-8 for his benefit. It should be a pretty straightforward walkthrough:
Verse 27:

• Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, The previous verses.
  
• for in accordance with these words See above.
  
• I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”  Yes, Moses does use the word covenant. For the purpose of this discussion, you seem to have drawn a strong line between "Covenant" and "Commandments" for the purpose of saying "Yes! The Bible really does support the Tradition after all!" even though it clearly doesn't.
  

Verse 28:

• Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he ate no bread and drank no water. Not going to bother with this clause here, it's irrelevant to the argument.
  
•  And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. Notice: The words of the covenant, which would seem to be connected to the list just mentioned that was specifically referred to as "a covenant" are explicitly connected to the term "The Ten Commandments." 
  

Seriously, it should be a very straightforward verse to understand. Even the Amplified Bible eschews its trademark parenthetical explanations, synonyms, and references because the original text is, in this case, pretty straightforward. Contrary to tradition, The Ten Commandments, according to the book of Exodus, are not the classic list of Exodus 20, but the list of ten rules given in Exodus 34. And it's not like it's something that you can connect with some faulty manuscript: the vast majority of translations will use the term "Ten Commandments" to refer to the list in Exodus 34, and not a single one has ever used it (in the text, as opposed to chapter headings) to refer to the list in Exodus 20.

And now I simply have to ask: If Exodus 20 is the only true list of the Ten Commandments, why did Exodus 20 not call its list of ten rules "The Ten Commandments" but Exodus 34 calls its own list "The Ten Commandments?"

Quote:Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you.

Dripshit, just because it is written in your stupid fucking bible does not make it true.  Some human...sadly one probably not a whole hell of a lot smarter than you... invented this shit to con gullible fools.  He must have been the Trump of his day because he sure nailed your sorry ass with his bullshit.

Anyway, Moses is as fictional as jesus and mohammed so you have that in common with the other abrahamic horseshit.

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