(May 17, 2017 at 10:54 am)Khemikal Wrote: Yes, his story is there in the quran, and apart from just being a story, even the story doesn't read as you have characterized it.......did you read the story...or?  

Ibrahim had a dream, and compelled by that dream he set out to commit the unspeakable in the name of god, by utter submission to it's will, as the first muslim.    Stop me when any of this rings a bell?

Abraham -or Ibrahim in Arabic- had the dream later on.

The story in the Quran foretell a very different course of events:

Quote:Sura 6, Page 137, The Quran:
( 74 )   And  when Abraham said to his father Azar, "Do you take idols as deities? Indeed, I see you and your people to be in manifest error."
( 75 )   And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain 
( 76 )   So when the night covered him [with darkness], he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."
( 77 )   And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray."
( 78 )   And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah.
( 79 )   Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and I am not of those who associate others with Allah."

The story ends with his immigration after his people attempting to burn him for insulting their faith idols.
The dream came later, these events take place in Abraham's youth when he was probably a teenager. 

Cyberman

(5 hours ago)AtlasS33 Wrote: Wrote:Didn't Abraham observe, thought about interesting questions... before believing ?

Quote:Not even slightly. God was all like "Hey Abes, kill your son for me thx" and Abraham was like "K", then it was "Just trollin lol" and Abraham was all "Omg sick burn lololol!!!!! I was totes gonn do it tho" and God was all "Yeah bout dat we gots to talk facetime me" and Isaac was all up in that shit and was like "WTF d00d? Liike SRSLY??!!!???" and that's where the trouble started.

No. The begening in the Quran has nothing to do with dreams or even a vision:

Quote:Sura 21, Page 327 & 326, The Quran:

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( 51 )   And We had certainly given Abraham his sound judgement before, and We were of him well-Knowing
( 52 )   When he said to his father and his people, "What are these statues to which you are devoted?"
( 53 )   They said, "We found our fathers worshippers of them."
( 54 )   He said, "You were certainly, you and your fathers, in manifest error."
( 55 )   They said, "Have you come to us with truth, or are you of those who jest?"
( 56 )   He said, "[No], rather, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth who created them, and I, to that, am of those who testify.
( 57 )   And [I swear] by Allah, I will surely plan against your idols after you have turned and gone away."
( 58 )   So he made them into fragments, except a large one among them, that they might return to it [and question].

( 59 )   They said, "Who has done this to our gods? Indeed, he is of the wrongdoers."

( 60 )   They said, "We heard a young man mention them who is called Abraham."

( 61 )   They said, "Then bring him before the eyes of the people that they may testify."

( 62 )   They said, "Have you done this to our gods, O Abraham?"

( 63 )   He said, "Rather, this - the largest of them - did it, so ask them, if they should [be able to] speak."

( 64 )   So they returned to [blaming] themselves and said [to each other], "Indeed, you are the wrongdoers."

( 65 )   Then they reversed themselves, [saying], "You have already known that these do not speak!"

( 66 )   He said, "Then do you worship instead of Allah that which does not benefit you at all or harm you?

( 67 )   Uff to you and to what you worship instead of Allah. Then will you not use reason?"

( 68 )   They said, "Burn him and support your gods - if you are to act."

( 69 )   Allah said, "O fire, be coolness and safety upon Abraham."
( 70 )   And they intended for him harm, but We made them the greatest losers.

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It never begins with a dream in the Quran; it begins with:
1-Observation to the skies
2-Questioning of stone worshiping
3-A conclusion that led the young man defy and face his whole community including his father, and publicly shaming the religion of his forefathers.

Tazzycorn

(5 hours ago)AtlasS33 Wrote: Wrote:Didn't Abraham observe, thought about interesting questions... before believing ?

Quote:No Abram saw lots of stuff he didn't understand, got puzzled momentarily, and then went "oh well, fuck it, I'll blame yhwh". He never went near the scientific method.

He observed and concluded that a design and a pattern are so great to be appointed as a property of mere stones and statues.
And he had the guts to say "no" to a whole heathen tribe that burn people.

So, in -that- story..to you, it sounds like ibrahim is doing science?   As to guts, does it really take much in the way of guts to tell believers no?  I don't ever feel like it does, and you're still burning people...so?  Meanwhile..you've just described every angsty teen ever, rebelling against the beliefs of their parents and norms of their community.

He also had a whole army of Smurfs at his command.

(May 17, 2017 at 5:13 pm)Khemikal Wrote: So, in -that- story..to you, it sounds like ibrahim is doing science?   As to guts, does it really take much in the way of guts to tell believers no?  I don't ever feel like it does, and you're still burning people...so?  Meanwhile..you've just described every angsty teen ever, rebelling against the beliefs of their parents and norms of their community.

Newton was observing an apple when the theory of gravity sparked in his head.
Abraham looked around instead of blindly accepting what he's being told. "Trial and error" is even presented in that story: he began with observing planets, then the moon, then the sun.

The revolution against compulsive backward theism that the Church and many Muslims embraced through the past, did make a huge difference between modern humans and ancient humans who believed in things like flat earth; with no evidence.

Islam presents an open invitation to observe everything, and see the design for ourselves. The pattern. Just like Abraham.
And just like science begins with observation of natural phenomena.

Cyberman

In Arabic, they are called "Sanafer".

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(May 17, 2017 at 5:49 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Newton was observing an apple when the theory of gravity sparked in his head.

I'm observing a pattern.  You enjoy stories......

Quote:Abraham looked around instead of blindly accepting what he's being told. "Trial and error" is even presented in that story: he began with observing planets, then the moon, then the sun.

The revolution against compulsive backward theism that the Church and many Muslims embraced through the past, did make a huge difference between modern humans and ancient humans who believed in things like flat earth; with no evidence.

Islam presents an open invitation to observe everything, and see the design for ourselves. The pattern. Just like Abraham.
And just like science begins with observation of natural phenomena.

Cool story.

(May 17, 2017 at 5:56 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(May 17, 2017 at 5:49 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Newton was observing an apple when the theory of gravity sparked in his head.

I'm observing a pattern.  You enjoy stories......

All humans do.

Back in the past, tribesmen and tribeswomen used to sit around campfire, and bring an old guy to tell and tell.
Now, the methods just changed; but the concept is the same.

Even science tells a story. Everything is a story.

Humans are nothing but deeds; written down to be their stories.

So I must enjoy stories. It's who I am.

The point seems to have flown over your head like an enthusiastic apple.  Neither the story about newton, or ibrahim, is remotely true, and that's laying aside how fantastically you've read your own beliefs into a story that has nothing at all to do with any type of science whatsoever. In the one case, it a is a person mythologizing their lifelong study..and in another - other people mythologizing their lifelong faiths.

(May 17, 2017 at 1:57 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 12:13 pm)Valyza1 Wrote: Why not?  If our very identities are determined by God, then we can't help but will things according to His design (namely his design of us).  We can choose whatever we want (Free Will), and what we want has been determined by God (Determinism)

If this is what you think, you're doing it wrong.

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Care to elaborate?

(May 17, 2017 at 6:15 pm)Khemikal Wrote: The point seems to have flown over your head like an enthusiastic apple.  Neither the story about newton, or ibrahim, is remotely true, and that's laying aside how fantastically you've read your own beliefs into a story that has nothing at all to do with any type of science whatsoever.  In the one case, it a is a person mythologizing their lifelong study..and in another - other people mythologizing their lifelong faiths.

Observation of natural phenomena seems like the dominant explicit act stated in Abraham's story.

(May 17, 2017 at 5:49 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Newton was observing an apple when the theory of gravity sparked in his head.

Actually, that's not true.