(May 21, 2017 at 12:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It would be like you going to a forum for creationists and asking them some questions you have concerning evolution.

tried that, got kicked out without explanation

(May 21, 2017 at 10:08 am)MellisaClarke Wrote:

(May 21, 2017 at 9:39 am)mh.brewer Wrote: You lost me, what's your point?

You asked how could the game creators do something without a machine, and I gave you your machine.

You gave a machine, great. I'm not a Sims person but I think that program can run on many machines by many manufacturers (correct me if I'm wrong). You don't believe that the same person that wrote Sims also builds all of the computers available do you? So in your analogy now we have multiple gods. 

Also, let's say there is only one Sims programmer and one Microsoft/Xbox computer (et al, any computer system) and that entity becomes god the creator. This god should be the only entity that can effect what it has created. I think we both know that is not correct. Now there are even more gods, gods that have more power than the creator god. Where does this analogy end? The logical end point would be an ultimate god, basically your god (or jew, muslim, hindu, .......). 

We're back to square one, prove that your god exists.

(May 21, 2017 at 12:38 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote:

(May 21, 2017 at 12:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It would be like you going to a forum for creationists and asking them some questions you have concerning evolution.

tried that, got kicked out without explanation  

They're scumbags.  How much more of an explanation do you need?

(May 21, 2017 at 10:08 am)MellisaClarke Wrote:

(May 21, 2017 at 9:49 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Microsoft assembles Xboxes. They do not manufacture atoms.

That it why it's a piss-poor analogy.

Microsoft used raw material, atoms.

God used raw material "nothing". Lawrence Krauss does an okay job at explaining "nothing" in his book.

So your god requires raw materials, and cannot create ex nihilo?

Looks like you've just created a needless entity, to use Occam's phrase.

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(May 21, 2017 at 12:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It would be like you going to a forum for creationists and asking them some questions you have concerning evolution.

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Why, that would be trolling!

Hmm, hold on just a moment ...

MellisaClarke Wrote:

mh.brewer Wrote:Other than writing the code what did they create? That is a poor god analogy. The code, without the machine, is nothing. 

Waiting for your proof. Until then god remains a fantasy.

Microsoft builds hardware, and games. (Xbox)
Microsoft creators are not inside the Xbox.

I'm always pleased when a new theist poster isn't just here for a post and run, but participates in their own threads. Welcome, Mellisa!

It seems you've got God, rather than being outside of space and time, in another space and time, where God can do things that take time, like thinking and doing and existing for more than an instant.

Seems like if the space/time we inhabit requires someone outside of it to exist, so would the space-time God inhabits. Putting God in the position of a computer programmer just pushes the rabbit farther down the hole.

(May 21, 2017 at 11:56 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: She's here with Christian questions for christians. This is an atheist forum. She won't find what she's looking for here.

So, again that is an echo chamber, you are here too so there is no need for her to be totally isolated from non Christians, unless you are afraid of being wrong too. Why are you even here if all you want to do is pat each other on the back?

(May 21, 2017 at 5:01 am)MellisaClarke Wrote:

(May 21, 2017 at 4:58 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote: How do you know what's "outside time and space"? If god can be outside time and space - so can be an infinite number of things. There could be billions of "gods". Big Bang started "outside time and space", so by your "logic" - it  required no creator. And since our Universe came from the Big Bang - there's no need for a god/creator of the Universe.

And anybody can make up any nonsense and claim it's true, as long as it's "outside time and space". Guess what - I'm outside time and space and I don't see any god around here, so your religious beliefs must be false...

You missed my later edit.

God is outside of space and time, but the big bang is within the range of "things" inside of space and time.

AlexK, imagine Sims creator and his game/computer. You will quickly notice that Sims creator is not inside his computer, outside of the game/computer.

The creator of sims is not limited by the rules of the sims game.

Nor is the sims game as a whole. Meaning, the universe as a whole doesn't need to adhere to the laws governing the physics *within* itself, so you cannot argue that it needs to be created and base that argument on the laws of causality you know from inside the universe.

Btw. Causality is a very subtle thing, there are plenty of phenomena that are apparently uncaused, via quantum physics.

(May 21, 2017 at 4:07 am)MellisaClarke Wrote: Am I a true Christian for having problems with the above? Help!

This is a funny one: Asking on an atheist forum whether you are a true Christian or not?

(May 21, 2017 at 10:59 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 21, 2017 at 4:07 am)MellisaClarke Wrote: I have been seeing too many atheists memes these later months. I wonder about myself now, and I wonder about my goals.

I saw another meme some days ago about God that I am having problems thinking about.


Statement: "Everything has a creator, and God has no creator".

I always think the above as correct.

The meme continues: "Since God has no creator, God is not a thing to be created, or no thing to be created, i.e. nothing; God is nothing".

Am I a true Christian for having problems with the above? Help!

There is no "true" this or that, there are only core positions. Interpretations very from individual to individual. 

Neither "Christian" or "Jew" or "Muslim" or "Hindu" or "Buddhist" or even "atheist" are copywrites or trademarks. If you want to know what an individual thinks on a claim, you have to ask the individual.

Having said that, it does not matter to me what you think even given this admission. If you are willing to see your own doubts and are starting to question your position, that is the important thing. 

Most humans of religion simply defend what they are familiar with and what their parents sell them. An apology is an apology regardless of religious club. 

I think you should consider that our species is much older than any written religion, other life as well existed far longer than humans. Our planet is 4 billion years old, and our species only started writing things down 10thousand years ago. Our galaxy has billions and billions of suns, and our 13.8 billion year old universe has an estimated nearly 200billion galaxies.

It would seem a lot of wast of time and space and material for an all powerful God to take all that time to create a mostly hostile universe only to wait 10,000 years ago to get to being concerned with humans, and even then wait until last century for science to really boom and expand our knowledge. 

Doubting is good. Doubting allows you to be free to question what you believe and change your position and update it when better information comes along. If our species never questioned social norms, our species never would have left the caves.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer.

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(May 21, 2017 at 11:01 am)Aoi Magi Wrote:

(May 21, 2017 at 10:41 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Melissa, as we said last time, this isn't the place for you. You need to go to a Christian forum or better yet, go to your pastor. This is an atheist forum. You won't find what you're looking for here.

While seeking truth, going to an echo chamber isn't a good idea.

This is what I was thinking. My pastor and friends just aren't providing the comfort I though they would be able to on the matters presented here.

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(May 21, 2017 at 10:19 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: @Mellisa, what you are suggesting is the simulation idea which suggests we are living in some form of simulation. If you compare us to sims, realize that we have no freewill and hence heaven/hell is moot. If you do place god outside of "space time", realize that that alone doesn't exempt him from the rules of that super-universe. In your sims analogy, at the basest level, they are energy as much as the human who created them, and at that level the laws of nature are the same.

I am not suggesting that we are simulations.
I just used the sims to try to paint the picture, of creators that can be outside of their creations.

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(May 21, 2017 at 10:41 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Melissa, as we said last time, this isn't the place for you. You need to go to a Christian forum or better yet, go to your pastor. This is an atheist forum. You won't find what you're looking for here.

Thanks Catholic_Lady. 

But as I said up above, my pastor and friends are not providing me with comforting answers. Some of my most spiritual friends seem to freeze up at some of my questions, which is shocking to me.

(May 21, 2017 at 2:24 pm)Zenith Wrote:

(May 21, 2017 at 4:07 am)MellisaClarke Wrote: Am I a true Christian for having problems with the above? Help!

This is a funny one: Asking on an atheist forum whether you are a true Christian or not?

Yeah I'm starting to wonder if she's a poe.