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July 20, 2011 at 9:36 pm (This post was last modified: July 20, 2011 at 9:44 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I understand that it's been done, but I wouldn't exactly hold the romans up as paragons of morality. Obviously better than many alternatives for their time, and still......
Believe we have some conventions, that give us some idea as to what to do with POWs. Not sure your example was a great one of the morally superior state of slavery. Letting them go (a bad idea tactically) would probably still be the most moral idea. On the other hand, wars arent fought or won from the moral high ground are they?
As far as an argument from incredulity, it's not that I haven't heard just about every argument for slavery, I was raised in the deep south. If I were going to call it an argument from incredulity I would call it an argument from willful incredulity. I refuse to consider it an option, in any circumstance. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, human being, not every position I have is based in reason or logic. I do engage in a fair amount of wishful thinking, try to stay positive..lol, but I have kids tugging on my heartstrings...lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Quote:Obviously better than many alternatives for their time,
Which is all that Pad is saying.
You know I always laugh when someone says the Jews defending Masada chose to kill themselves rather than live as slaves. Horseshit. They were rebels. Being "enslaved" was about the least of their worries.
July 20, 2011 at 9:52 pm (This post was last modified: July 20, 2011 at 9:55 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Yeah you know I'm sorry if I reacted a bit harshly to your post Pad, again, deep south...and then these asshats with their enslaving great-faery, it's a touchy subject for us educated rednecks. I rolled a little bit of my absolute disgust from the post regarding gods provisions to slavery into your post I suppose.
And Min, doesn't it just look like there's a lot of unnecessary space between those uprights? Must have been a slow day for the roman war machine..hehehe.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
July 21, 2011 at 12:57 am (This post was last modified: July 21, 2011 at 1:01 am by Violet.)
(July 20, 2011 at 7:50 am)Rhythm Wrote: Why do I need some standard for an absolute moral authority regarding slavery? LOL, at the ad hom comment...I'll gladly insult the proponents of slavery under any guise. Just raise your hands so I can fire off an entire volley of ad homs.
* Violet raises her left hand about halfway into the air and then decides that she doesn't give a rat's left ankle that she's the only one here who wholly supports slavery
Quote:When there's no other choice? So when exactly is there only one option, that option being to purchase a human being, and this of course for their own good? Remember, we're talking slavery here, not buying someone and releasing them. That's playing the system to a persons favor, not enslaving them.
Children.
Elderly to the point they can do very little by themselves.
POW.
Quote:You'll have to forgive my confusion here btw, you're asking me to show you an absolute moral authority of some kind when I've never claimed there to be one. In fact I pretty much argue against any form of absolute authority every time I post. That I'm suspicious of anyone who would consider another human being as property has nothing to do with moral authority, and everything to do with my desire to live in a world where I would never be considered as such (or anyone else for that matter, but lets be honest...specifically me).
Notably, morals are a value judgement, and all value judgements are individual.
Quote:I'm left wondering here if you're playing the devil's advocate, or if you actually feel that the institution of slavery has some saving grace, some merit or benefit to mankind.
Children again... in particular. Granted that this is at odds with how I treat children. I'm an enabler and apathetic until they become annoying. But I do that to adults too. And other animals that are not human.
The "saving grace" of slavery is rather readily apparent if you stop getting all cut up in the "but it's not free!" and think about what freedom entails.
Believe me... you would not like it.
Quote:The only argument from a moral authority that I've heard thusfar regarding slavery is the one that goes "God says it's okay...with provisions", well, I don't agree, what justification do I need other than that I disagree?
I'll give you better ones if you like.
Quote:I can be even clearer, if there were a god, proven beyond all doubt to exist, I would still disagree with slavery, even if that meant disagreeing with the real and absolute cosmic authority.
Everything exists. But I'm with you... screw you Daddio: I do things my own way ^_^
Quote:I don't need feel the need to prop my opinions on this matter up with any type of authority whatsoever, beyond my own. Perhaps I cant assert any sort of authority on this matter beyond my own sphere of influence, but it is a sword I'd gladly fall on if the only choice was to perpetuate the institution of slavery or die.
You do perpetuate the 'institution' of slavery. Your quarrel is probably not with slavery... but 'what form' it takes. Kind of how I don't have a quarrel with racing someone... unless they are a Kenyan ^_^
Quote:Before you accuse me of posturing on this, here from my pc chair, understand that I am already a person who's stood between hostile fire and friendly people. These aren't just words, but part of the core of what makes me who I am. So much for the atheists flexible morality eh?
Thing about personality: it changes. And with it: the person. More time you spend with me: faster it changes At least right now this is true. Maybe it won't be when I become not myself. But when do I draw that distinction? Will I make a new name? Will the changes be so apparent? How will this affect me? Interesting questions. What you 'already are' is not what you will always be. You are in flux in the swirls around you. Might as well make a few bubbles
Quote:It may be that I'm completely off base, that there are indeed circumstances which allow for the ethical trade and ownership of human beings. I haven't seen a convincing argument to that effect. Until such time as I come across a convincing argument FOR slavery, I'm going to aggressively ridicule those who hold a pro-slavery opinion.
THere are. Ethics being subjective, of course I admire your ferocity to defend this... but I can't stop the smiling. It's funny, see. That someone could aggressively ridicule me ^_^
Quote:I believe there is a thread on the subject of the bible and slavery particularly, and lest someone get the idea that I've singled this issue out......
Ehh... if we didn't ever derail: we'd be 90% less fun. Still better than most places... but it wouldn't be such a merry-go-round of merriment.
Quote:Notice that I don't even touch upon the wall of ignorance that those who believed the bible to be the literal word of god and factually inerrant erected between ourselves and progress. I don't have to, even if every word were true, it would still be terrible.
That is indeed bad....... if you believe that the Dragon Warrior can't stop him.
(July 19, 2011 at 8:35 pm)Shell B Wrote:
(July 19, 2011 at 8:31 pm)TheCarlisle Wrote: Where in the Bible does it say pi is 3 and rape is perfectly fine? I've already addressed the slavery thing and how it can benefit people.
Not satisfactorily. Saying you can rape a slave is saying it is perfectly fine. That is not beneficial. That is fucking terrible.
What else were you going to do with a slave in this day and age?
July 21, 2011 at 1:07 am (This post was last modified: July 21, 2011 at 1:16 am by Violet.)
(July 19, 2011 at 11:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If you wanted to save a person..why buy them as property? Doesn't wash, but hey, that's just me. I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who can find any reason whatsoever to consider a human being property.
DO YOU DEFEND IT?
If no: not property.
If yes: property until someone else defends it.
Pretty simple concept, this ownership thing. The only question is how well is a thing owned.
And does it bite.
(July 20, 2011 at 5:27 pm)krazedkat Wrote: Did you read the wonderful clause where if you beat a slave and they survive for two or so days and THEN die then you are completely justified? If you believe that slavery is fine in any magnitude I feel sorry for you as you are clearly morally inferior to most atheists.
(July 21, 2011 at 1:01 am)Minimalist Wrote: They also look too high, Rhythm. A foot off the ground would have been sufficient.
No, this way they can be seen from a good distance. Crucifixion was as much a warning to others as it was a punishment.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
I can't say I'd object to convicted pedophiles, rapists and murderers being crucified today in public. Bleeding hearts would crow and say, that's cruel and unusual punishment! While electing to overlook that pedophilia, rape and murder was too. Often it is said the death penalty is no deterrent. I contend that's because it's all done in secret. Nail a few convicted pedophiles, rapists, murderers to a cross around the courthouse, nail a board above their head announcing the crime they're being punished for, and I bet any pedophile, rapist or murderer with eyes to see will not help but to learn that what hangs, dies and rots before their eyes is what foretells their own destiny if they pursue their cruel and unusual deviant behaviors.
"In life you can never be too kind or too fair; everyone you meet is carrying a heavy load. When you go through your day expressing kindness and courtesy to all you meet, you leave behind a feeling of warmth and good cheer, and you help alleviate the burdens everyone is struggling with."
Brian Tracy
(July 21, 2011 at 1:07 am)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote:
(July 19, 2011 at 11:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If you wanted to save a person..why buy them as property? Doesn't wash, but hey, that's just me. I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who can find any reason whatsoever to consider a human being property.
DO YOU DEFEND IT?
If no: not property.
If yes: property until someone else defends it.
Pretty simple concept, this ownership thing. The only question is how well is a thing owned.
And does it bite.
(July 20, 2011 at 5:27 pm)krazedkat Wrote: Did you read the wonderful clause where if you beat a slave and they survive for two or so days and THEN die then you are completely justified? If you believe that slavery is fine in any magnitude I feel sorry for you as you are clearly morally inferior to most atheists.
Did you know that I donate more than you?
Funny that.
I don't see what that has to do with anything, but shoot. What brings you to that conclusion? Note that I also donate time to charities as a volunteer.
![[Image: 28crucifixion.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img27.imageshack.us%2Fimg27%2F1996%2F28crucifixion.jpg)
I admire your ferocity to defend this... but I can't stop the smiling. It's funny, see. That someone could aggressively ridicule me ^_^
![[Image: 2j9s1y.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i56.tinypic.com%2F2j9s1y.jpg)
