(June 25, 2017 at 11:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: And Altas, while I am glad you are a liberal Muslim, please understand that "it's a test" is bad argument Christians and Jews use as well.

The morality of claiming "its a test" is horrible.

For example, a 5 year old boy or girl gets kidnapped by a molester, raped and butchered and murdered. In reality unfortunately that happens all the time. Exactly what kind of "test" is that to the kid? What could a kid do at such a young age to deserve that kind of "test".

No sorry. 

A test is something you take in school. A test is something you do to get a spot on a sporting team. A test is something you take to get a job. Violence and death is not a "test". An unfortunate reality sure, but the idea of it being a test is immoral.

^^^ This. So very much this. As I said before, if the sweetest woman I will ever have the honour to know had to die for the sake of some obscure "test", then fuck this test, fuck this god, and quite frankly fuck you too for having such a shitty dismissive attitude to the lives of other people.

(June 25, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Aliza Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 11:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: And Altas, while I am glad you are a liberal Muslim, please understand that "it's a test" is bad argument Christians and Jews use as well.

In what sense do Jews use the term "test?"

If Hindus believe that bad things happen because of karma, does that belief change their response to dealing with the problem?

Been at this online since 01. I have heard "its a test" from all three and Hindus and Buddhists as well. You have a bias and are suffering from selection bias which creates sample rate error.

"A test" and "karma" are BOTH bias religious views as an attempt to explain why bad things happen.

Muslims, "Bad things happen to good people and here is why"

Jews, "Bad things happen to good people and here is why"

Christians, "Bad things happen to good people and here is why"

Hindus, "Bad things happen to good people and here is why"

Buddhists, "Bad things happen to good people and here is why".



You have tunnel vision because you are stuck in a pet claim like everyone else.

The real reason bad things happen to good people is because they do, because we observe them. Again, nobody wants to get cancer, nobody wants their house blown away by a tornado. Nobody wants to die because of a volcano exploding. 

Kids don't die by the hands of a child molester because a ground troll was screwing with the neurons in the criminal's head. In reality, those criminals do that very vile thing because of multiple factors, many times because of the physical abuse of their parents or repeated abuse growing up by someone the victim knows.  Once the abuser can grow up to abuse.

There is no magic needed, no holy book or holy person needed, to explain why good or bad happen. "test" is not an appropriate word to describe or explain why bad things happen. And again, especially not if one is going to make the naked assertion that a cosmic security guard is looking out for you.

If humans want to reduce harm then only humans can do that. And the way to do that is to accept the natural reasons things go wrong and seek answers in reality to find ways to reduce that harm. It is why doctors and scientists study cancer, to find cures for them. It is why criminologists interview child molesters, not because they advocate it, but by interviewing them they can understand where the wiring went wrong, and understand the tactics they use to warn parents and kids not to fall for it.

But once you assert a cosmic security guard as the answer the logic fails. No sane parent in a lucid state with no mental problems who has the ability to prevent harm to their kid, would not do so. In the context of an all powerful God it would seem this claimed god would have even less excuse.

(June 25, 2017 at 12:49 pm)Roeki Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Aliza Wrote: In what sense do Jews use the term "test?"

If Hindus believe that bad things happen because of karma, does that belief change their response to dealing with the problem?

Well jews dont believe hell fire is torment, the fire they think of is to cleanse you from unpure stuff, but not torture. Basically hell is more that you are ashamed or something and have to be rehabilitated. King of what psychologists do before you go to heaven. Basically in judaism anyone can go to heaven if they are good or dont commit blasphemy etc.... though even if they are bad there doesnt seem to be much consequences. Well unless you reaaaaaally are just awful, and that has to be on a huge level. There is this place called Abaddon, which esentially means your soul and body goes to the void or something, the nothingness.

Blasphemy in Judaism isn't the same as it is in Christianity, but your description is close enough. Thank you.

Still... What do Jews believe they are being tested on? (It might be appropriate for me to mention at this point that I'm an educated Jew.)

(June 25, 2017 at 12:49 pm)Roeki Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Aliza Wrote: In what sense do Jews use the term "test?"

If Hindus believe that bad things happen because of karma, does that belief change their response to dealing with the problem?

Well jews dont believe hell fire is torment, the fire they think of is to cleanse you from unpure stuff, but not torture. Basically hell is more that you are ashamed or something and have to be rehabilitated. King of what psychologists do before you go to heaven. Basically in judaism anyone can go to heaven if they are good or dont commit blasphemy etc.... though even if they are bad there doesnt seem to be much consequences. Well unless you reaaaaaally are just awful, and that has to be on a huge level. There is this place called Abaddon, which esentially means your soul and body goes to the void or something, the nothingness.

Not the point. Jews not having a "hell" has nothing to do with their beginnings. Even in their history there ARE punishments handed down by Yahweh for not following his orders.

"Hell is more that you are ashamed of something and have to be rehabilitated".......

No, ^^^^^^ that is your current western pluralistic modern interpretation. In antiquity in both polytheism and monotheism punishment was far more severe and taken very literally. 

Even with the OT the Jewish god Yahweh is not depicted as being very kind to dissent. "Shame" in antiquity worldwide was more about not towing the tribal line. Even Yahweh as a character, even without an afterlife hell, DOES punish people with all sorts of horrible things for not obeying him. 

The mortality rate worldwide back then, even in Asia and India, was much higher, and everyone back then lived under ruling families. Back then it was far more important to support your tribal state against rivals. 

"Jews don't have a hell" is arguing details when I am arguing the motif of punishment and severe punishment is depicted in the Hebrew tradition. When bad things happened to Jews back then, while alive, they were simply chalking it up to Yahweh being angry with them. No hell or afterlife required for that.

(June 25, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Cyberman Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 11:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: And Altas, while I am glad you are a liberal Muslim, please understand that "it's a test" is bad argument Christians and Jews use as well.

The morality of claiming "its a test" is horrible.

For example, a 5 year old boy or girl gets kidnapped by a molester, raped and butchered and murdered. In reality unfortunately that happens all the time. Exactly what kind of "test" is that to the kid? What could a kid do at such a young age to deserve that kind of "test".

No sorry. 

A test is something you take in school. A test is something you do to get a spot on a sporting team. A test is something you take to get a job. Violence and death is not a "test". An unfortunate reality sure, but the idea of it being a test is immoral.

^^^ This. So very much this. As I said before, if the sweetest woman I will ever have the honour to know had to die for the sake of some obscure "test", then fuck this test, fuck this god, and quite frankly fuck you too for having such a shitty dismissive attitude to the lives of other people.

Think for a second, the purpose of a trial is to build character, death would be counter productive...

But it's not my death being 'used' for this test of my character, is it? Let me clarify. Everything I said is in the context of "if the purpose of her life (or anyone's) was to die in order to test me".

The story of Adam and Eve illustrates several of the Ten Commandments from Exodus 34:12-26.

The first one is the First Commandment, about worshiping no other God except Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies. Adam and Eve broke that commandment when they followed the serpent and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Exodus 34:14

Yahweh then showed them mercy, which is a recurring theme in the Bible.

The second one is the Fourth Commandment, about the firstborn males being Yahweh's to do with as he pleases. Adam, being the original golem, was Yahweh's to do with as he pleased. That theme is repeated in Romans 9:20-21, which says that the potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another vessel for garbage.

The story also encapsulates the ebb and flow of the relationship between the Israelites and their God Yahweh that's repeated in all of the biblical stories.

Remember, all of the biblical stories are based upon the passage in Exodus 34:10-28. Once you understand that it helps you to see which of the Ten Commandments the story is illustrating. Exodus 34:10 is the basis for all of the miracles.

(June 25, 2017 at 3:11 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Cyberman Wrote: ^^^ This. So very much this. As I said before, if the sweetest woman I will ever have the honour to know had to die for the sake of some obscure "test", then fuck this test, fuck this god, and quite frankly fuck you too for having such a shitty dismissive attitude to the lives of other people.

Think for a second, the purpose of a trial is to build character, death would be counter productive...

Sorry but now all you are doing is switching the word "test" with "trial".

Would you consider it a "trial" if you worked in a restaurant, and your boss never told you about the gas leak, or anyone for that matter, and while you were working the kitchen blew up, several people died but you barely survived? I'd fucking sue in that case. I'd make sure the fucker not only paid my medical bills, but also spent some time in prison for manslaughter.

You are playing word games. Violence and death suck, everyone gets that, but there is no puppeteer setting us up in a rigged game. 

And witnessing trauma DOES NOT always "build character". There are even cops and military whom after witnessing violence and death, suffer from PTSD and end up committing suicide.

And this also insults the memory of my own mother. I watched her die. No, it wasn't on a battlefield or in trying to save a kid from a house fire. I watched her slowly decline over a couple week period. And even without the violence I can tell you it is nothing anyone wants to see, but worldwide death happens from everything on average 50 to 60 million times per year. 

Death happens in the womb, in birth, it happens in childhood and adult to old age. We die from everything worldwide. Disease, famine, accident, natural disaster, man made disaster, crime and war. Death is not sexy at all, it is ugly and for you to romance it with the word "trial" is no different than using the word "test" to me.

"Trial" doesn't explain shit. Only study of the causes helps us avoid the causes. And even in trying to avoid all the countless ways we can die, we still do.

The urge to survive after facing such things should not be trivialized with hollow cliches. If we wish as a species to extend our ride, we seek data and study that data and adapt to that data.

---

(June 25, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The story of Adam and Eve illustrates several of the Ten Commandments from Exodus 34:12-26.

The first one is the First Commandment, about worshiping no other God except Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies. Adam and Eve broke that commandment when they followed the serpent and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  Exodus 34:14

Yahweh then showed them mercy, which is a recurring theme in the Bible.

The second one is the Fourth Commandment, about the firstborn males being Yahweh's to do with as he pleases.  Adam, being the original golem, was Yahweh's to do with as he pleased.  That theme is repeated in Romans 9:20-21, which says that the potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another vessel for garbage.

The story also encapsulates the ebb and flow of the relationship between the Israelites and their God Yahweh that's repeated in all of the biblical stories.

Remember, all of the biblical stories are based upon the passage in Exodus 34:10-28.  Once you understand that it helps you to see which of the Ten Commandments the story is illustrating.  Exodus 34:10 is the basis for all of the miracles.

Without realizing it, you give yourself away. You keep using the word, and I agree, "story" because that is really all it is, a story.

Our species morality is not in an old book of myth, or any holy writing of any religion for that matter.

It does not take a preacher, Imam, Rabbi, Buddhist monk, Hindu guru  to figure out that cooperation works better than force or crime. Sure, religion is where most of the world thinks morality comes from, but that is not really where it is coming from. If you can accept that others outside your pet belief can do good, and they can accept you can do good, what that tells me, is that our morality is in us, not the artificial labels humans invent. There is not one nation, friend or foe alike that does not have hospitals or prisons. 

Every religion in the world has followers who can point to stories of kindness. That list does not display a loving god, but a selfish narcissist. The first 4 commandments are all about kissing his ass. But all religions set up fake power structures and give power to those who merely claim it but cannot universally demonstrate the credibility of their claims.

The vast majority of our species, a population of 7 billion, mostly merely adapt the religion of their parents because the get sold it in youth, prior to having the ability to question.

It would be nice if people learned what the real Ten Commandments are before they croak.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36g3auOm9HA&t=1850s

(June 25, 2017 at 6:46 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: It would be nice if people learned what the real Ten Commandments are before they croak.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36g3auOm9HA&t=1850s

Thank you Superman, but it is not your job to save anyone. For you to claim you are only peddling this story is for our own good, is like Ben Kanobi convincing Luke Skywaker to avoid the Dark Side and fight Darth Vader.

Why is it so hard for you, or any person of ANY religion to grasp the fact that we are NOT different? Why is it you reject the morals of other religions and they reject yours while (at least on the liberal side of all) you all accept the other can do good and be good?

To me, it would be nice if humans would skip myth, skip clubs, skip crap about the super natural and spirit/divine world, and realize this is it. It would be nice if more humans figured out this is a finite ride and if our species wants to extend it as long as possible, tribal religious bullshit is not the way to get there.

Listen to your logic, it is no different than any other religion.

"It would be nice if people followed Jesus"
"It would be nice if people followed Allah"
"It would be nice if people followed Yahweh"
"It would be nice if people followed Buddha"
"It would be nice if people followed Vishnu"

Sorry, but on a planet of 7 billion, I don't even like it when atheist say

"Wouldn't it be nice if nobody believed in any religion".

From my point of view sure, it would be nice if nobody bought claims of fictional sky heros, but that wont happen.

Don't get me wrong, I will ALWAYS argue against naked assertions, fictional beings, and scientifically absurd claims. But there is no utopia for anyone and there never will be. 

The best I see my fellow humans having the ability to accomplish is the ability to avoid a global war and avoid mutual destruction. Will we? That remains to be seen? Can we, yes, because empathy and cooperation are still part of our species ability.