(June 28, 2017 at 6:43 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Aliza Wrote: Blasphemy in Judaism isn't the same as it is in Christianity, but your description is close enough. Thank you.

Still... What do Jews believe they are being tested on? (It might be appropriate for me to mention at this point that I'm an educated Jew.)

You are playing word games.

It does not matter the religious label, worldwide if you push any group far enough with criticism or ridicule, enough in that group will get angry that you are  pointing out the flaws in their logic. Jews not having a hell does not change that their head character is stolen from prior Canaanite polytheism. It also does not change the fact they also have their sects and individual families whom also are extreme right conservatives whom also are sexist and homophobic. And if you think there are no far right Jews in Israel whom have the same "all or nothing" "us vs them" mentality as their conservative Muslim counterparts, you'd be wrong.

There are also extreme right Hindus and Buddhists. I can show you stories of Hindus assaulting and murdering others for killing cows. I can show you stories of arrests in Asia for blasphemy of Buddha. 

Don't get stuck on labels. Our species behaviors are in us, and this is the problem WORLDWIDE. Humans far too much get focused on their camps and refuse to understand that even within the same umbrella labels, there are competing sub sects that don't agree on how to follow or who to follow when it comes to the umbrella label.

While you CANNOT rid the world of any group, it has to be said that religion itself, is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy. It can only be managed and protected EQUALLY as a human right, but it should not get a blind pedestal free from criticism. 

I don't give Jews a pass either. That does not make me anti Jew, or anti Israel, it merely means when it comes to flaws in logic, or justifications for violence, I DON'T GIVE ANYONE a pass. I don't give my fellow atheists a pass either. Humans in general worldwide need to understand the difference between hate and bigotry, and criticism and ridicule of bad claims and bad logic.

Well said. A bit more calm and collected than I would have been but that's just me. I would have included something about the inherent dishonesty not being permissible and the fact that these religions have no right to indoctrinate children and those guilty should be prosecuted over it.

(June 28, 2017 at 6:43 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Aliza Wrote: Blasphemy in Judaism isn't the same as it is in Christianity, but your description is close enough. Thank you.

Still... What do Jews believe they are being tested on? (It might be appropriate for me to mention at this point that I'm an educated Jew.)

You are playing word games.

It does not matter the religious label, worldwide if you push any group far enough with criticism or ridicule, enough in that group will get angry that you are  pointing out the flaws in their logic. Jews not having a hell does not change that their head character is stolen from prior Canaanite polytheism. It also does not change the fact they also have their sects and individual families whom also are extreme right conservatives whom also are sexist and homophobic. And if you think there are no far right Jews in Israel whom have the same "all or nothing" "us vs them" mentality as their conservative Muslim counterparts, you'd be wrong.

There are also extreme right Hindus and Buddhists. I can show you stories of Hindus assaulting and murdering others for killing cows. I can show you stories of arrests in Asia for blasphemy of Buddha. 

Don't get stuck on labels. Our species behaviors are in us, and this is the problem WORLDWIDE. Humans far too much get focused on their camps and refuse to understand that even within the same umbrella labels, there are competing sub sects that don't agree on how to follow or who to follow when it comes to the umbrella label.

While you CANNOT rid the world of any group, it has to be said that religion itself, is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy. It can only be managed and protected EQUALLY as a human right, but it should not get a blind pedestal free from criticism. 

I don't give Jews a pass either. That does not make me anti Jew, or anti Israel, it merely means when it comes to flaws in logic, or justifications for violence, I DON'T GIVE ANYONE a pass. I don't give my fellow atheists a pass either. Humans in general worldwide need to understand the difference between hate and bigotry, and criticism and ridicule of bad claims and bad logic.

Jews make up 0.2% of the world population, yet earn 20% of the Nobel prizes. Academia, altruistic professions, sciences, medicine, and the arts are packed with Jews at a disproportionate level compared to our population. Our having stolen the Canaanite deity seems to have worked out very well or us.  

Yes, we have our fundamental nut cases, and they’re a nuisance to us. They make up a small percentage of our community and they’re ultimately our problem because they’re certainly not bothering or proselytizing to you. Jews are overwhelmingly on the side of liberals when it comes to subjects like equal rights, both marriage and civic, we’re fighting to keep church and state separated, we’re pro-choice, and the vast majority of us are arguing that creation, as understood as a magical 6-day event, is not what happened, and no such religious idea should be taught in schools because no religion belongs in public schools at all. By and large, Jew believe that as facts come in, our views should change.

The vast majority of the Jewish population overlaps in so many ways with what I’ve come to learn are the overarching goals of the atheist community. By all rights, we should be natural allies, yet the Jewish community as a whole gets labeled as a religion and I’ve met a few atheists who get stuck on the label and are not willing to find out first-hand what the Jewish community is really like.


I have no doubt that you may have an example of Hindus behaving badly, I’m sure we can find examples of people behaving badly because of their religion, because of their atheism, or for any other strongly held belief having nothing to do with religion. As a whole, are Hindus violent people? As a whole, do Hindus or Buddhists advocate murdering someone who harasses a cow, or are these one-off examples? A maladjusted person can become violent over the grocery store being out of bananas. This doesn’t mean the groups he’s connected to promotes or even condones his bad behavior. 

(June 27, 2017 at 1:49 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 27, 2017 at 1:26 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Isaiah 45:7         King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Exactly how does this mean "discipline" and "I don't create evil"? 

"You're taking it out of context!"  "It doesn't say what you think it does!"  "You should read the translation!"

Any deity capable of creating the entire universe, with billions of galaxies, should be able to write a book that CAN'T be taken out of context or mis-translated.

So, you think we should set aside that this is obviously poetry. Set aside the fact that evil is defined as the deprivation of good (and therefore not a thing that can be created). Set aside that this was not written in english. And conclude instead that this lone poetic clause in a poetic verse in a poetic chapter changes the whole nature of reality. You can go with that. I'm going to look at it on context.

Oh, I'll agree that there have been billions of mis-translations of this book of fictional bronze-age fairy tales.  Poetry, huh?  In your infallible KJV, it has God plainly saying "I create evil".   Oh, but it's poetry.    I know a whole bunch of people who seem to sincerely believe that the Christian Bible is all a bunch of old myths - most of it is just useful for reflection and meditation - except for the parts that they think are important.  THOSE are real.
    How much do you have to throw out, explain away, apologize for, and declare "poetry" before you decide the whole damn thing is myth and poetry?

(June 27, 2017 at 10:35 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(June 27, 2017 at 4:29 pm)alpha male Wrote: I like my life now, and I look forward to eternity in heaven. You're suggesting that God punish people like me who love him by destroying this world after A&E's failure, and reward the people who despise him.

That makes no sense.

Your ignorance of the actual facts of your mythology notwithstanding, this ideal you have of a god who possesses omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence not only does not hold up against the problem of evil, but even the omniscient and omnipotent ones break down individually on their own. Anyone looking at all the data objectively would conclude that not only does the entire enterprise not exist and that death ends up the same state of non-being we experienced prior to birth, but even if it did exist, those who earn the 'reward' would hardly be better off at the foot of this monstrous demon god than those in the lake of fire.

I don't hold to omnibenevolence. Your ignorance of my positions is showing...

(June 27, 2017 at 10:35 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(June 27, 2017 at 4:29 pm)alpha male Wrote: I like my life now, and I look forward to eternity in heaven. You're suggesting that God punish people like me who love him by destroying this world after A&E's failure, and reward the people who despise him.

That makes no sense.

Your ignorance of the actual facts of your mythology notwithstanding, this ideal you have of a god who possesses omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence not only does not hold up against the problem of evil, but even the omniscient and omnipotent ones break down individually on their own. Anyone looking at all the data objectively would conclude that not only does the entire enterprise not exist and that death ends up the same state of non-being we experienced prior to birth, but even if it did exist, those who earn the 'reward' would hardly be better off at the foot of this monstrous demon god than those in the lake of fire.

What specifically is the problem with omniscience and omnipotence?

Tell me about the Problem of Evil and why that makes a difference?

(June 28, 2017 at 4:53 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 27, 2017 at 10:35 pm)Astonished Wrote: Your ignorance of the actual facts of your mythology notwithstanding, this ideal you have of a god who possesses omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence not only does not hold up against the problem of evil, but even the omniscient and omnipotent ones break down individually on their own. Anyone looking at all the data objectively would conclude that not only does the entire enterprise not exist and that death ends up the same state of non-being we experienced prior to birth, but even if it did exist, those who earn the 'reward' would hardly be better off at the foot of this monstrous demon god than those in the lake of fire.

What specifically is the problem with omniscience and omnipotence?

Tell me about the Problem of Evil and why that makes a difference?

The contradiction of the inability to change one's own mind if one knows with certainty what one will do in the future, the making a rock so big it can't be lifted, what, you haven't heard those? And the problem of evil is only a 'problem' if you're like the lying happy-ass hippy dippy stain who posted before you and thinks there's something positive about that horrific monster to look forward to. Those who understand things objectively don't have any illusions that there's any good there to have to defend. It's why we get that even if it's true, that's literally the worst possible outcome for everyone. You might as well worship the Old Ones.

Actually, I'm going skip over whatever it is you typed in reply and stick to fairly strict policy to ignore people who can't possible say anything that would add anything to any conversation I want to be part of.

(June 28, 2017 at 3:18 am)Aliza Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 6:35 pm)Godscreated Wrote:

---

Christians do believe in testing from God but not as a main reason we were created, I would think the Jews of old would believe the same. The testing would be to better our relation ship with Him.

GC

I disagree with you on this. Jews of old viewed life as being experienced for the purpose of seeking out and enjoying in pleasurable experiences. (It's an oversimplification, but it's still accurate.)

... but even if I'm discounting some obscure, off-shoot, Hellenized Jewish movement who had incorporated darker, pagan elements into their religion, and did believe  that life was a "test," then those movements have long gone anyway. And even if I'm wrong about the beliefs of mainstream Jews of old, from which almost all Jews today hail, why would that even matter or need to have bearing on today's views? We live in the here and now, and Jews today see life as the pursuit in finding and indulging in enjoyable things.  If it's a test, then the test is to see how much joy you cultivated during your life and not a test to determine where your "eternal soul" will end up. 


Christianity and Judaism have almost nothing in common. Sadly, most people don't realize this and we get lumped in with the proselytizers and treated according to however the world views fundamentalist Christians.

 The OT shows us that the Jewish people believed they were tested as individuals and as a people. 
 Christians myself included seek to enjoy life but for me life would be less enjoyable without God in it.
 You are right the two have little in common mainly because of tradition, we do believe in the same God and this is why we are put under one umbrella.

GC

(June 29, 2017 at 12:06 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(June 28, 2017 at 3:18 am)Aliza Wrote: I disagree with you on this. Jews of old viewed life as being experienced for the purpose of seeking out and enjoying in pleasurable experiences. (It's an oversimplification, but it's still accurate.)

... but even if I'm discounting some obscure, off-shoot, Hellenized Jewish movement who had incorporated darker, pagan elements into their religion, and did believe  that life was a "test," then those movements have long gone anyway. And even if I'm wrong about the beliefs of mainstream Jews of old, from which almost all Jews today hail, why would that even matter or need to have bearing on today's views? We live in the here and now, and Jews today see life as the pursuit in finding and indulging in enjoyable things.  If it's a test, then the test is to see how much joy you cultivated during your life and not a test to determine where your "eternal soul" will end up. 


Christianity and Judaism have almost nothing in common. Sadly, most people don't realize this and we get lumped in with the proselytizers and treated according to however the world views fundamentalist Christians.

 The OT shows us that the Jewish people believed they were tested as individuals and as a people. 
 Christians myself included seek to enjoy life but for me life would be less enjoyable without God in it.
 You are right the two have little in common mainly because of tradition, we do believe in the same God and this is why we are put under one umbrella.

GC

Christians believe that we believe in the same god, but educated Jews would disagree. The descriptions of our deities are different. 

Jewish tradition is detailed in the Talmud, not the Torah. To understand how Jews practice the religion and interact with the Torah, you'd have to be familiar with the Talmud.

(June 28, 2017 at 9:33 pm)SteveII Wrote: Actually, I'm going skip over whatever it is you typed in reply and stick to fairly strict policy to ignore people who can't possible say anything that would add anything to any conversation I want to be part of.

By that logic, you should have stopped talking before you started. Oh, but that assumes you give a shit about logic.