(August 8, 2017 at 1:42 pm)pabsta Wrote:

(August 8, 2017 at 5:42 am)pocaracas Wrote: According to this site, this is what was reported:


Which translates roughly (by me) to:


So there you go.
The crowd was estimated at 30 to 40 thousand, not 70.
Most saw a trembling, at best. Spread out, some people spurred everyone around them to "see" something more...
Even though, many people remained unfased... as if nothing much had happened.
And a few fringe folk claimed the more outlandish things, like the sun coming down and changing color and spinning

So... at best, one can reliable say that people saw the sun tremble.
Is that so unlikely, given that it had been raining and it was now a radiant sunshine? At its zenith, it was noon, after all... as water evaporates and rises, some atmospheric lensing effects are bound to happen. Specially, even, in a place with the topology of Cova da Iria... luckily, the clue is in the name: cova translates to "hole in the ground"... the region has a bit of a parabolic shape, which helps to produce some cool effects in the Summer months.
Similar to the distortions we all see just above a hot road - hey look, a flying car!!


Can't say it's a common phenomenon, but the cameras present on site failed to capture it...

Here's what they did capture:

---

---

Yeah... people... even the ones looking up, have a bit of a skeptical look about them...

I already previously posted the English translations to what was printed in the newspapers the following day. I will paste them here again since you obviously missed it:

Diario de Noticias:
“At one o’clock the rain stopped. The sky had a certain gray clarity but seemed to suddenly be getting darker. The sun seemed veiled in gauze. We could look at it without strain. The gray tint of mother-of-pearl began changing as if into a silver disc that was growing and growing... until it broke the clouds! Then the silvery sun, still shrouded in that grayish light, began to rotate and wander within the circle of the receded clouds!
“The people cried out with one voice. Thousands, transported by ecstasy fell to their knees upon the muddy ground. Then, as if it were shining through the stained glass windows of a great cathedral, the light became a rare blue, spreading its rays upon the nave... Slowly the blue faded away and now the light seemed to be filtered through yellow. Yellow spots were falling now upon the white kerchiefs and dark shirts of coarse wool. They were spots which repeated themselves indefinitely over the landscape. All the people were weeping and praying bareheaded, weighted down by the greatness of the miracle. These were seconds, moments, that seemed hours...”
 
O Século:
“From beside the parked carriages and where many thousands stood, afraid to descend into the muddy soil of the Cova da Iria, we saw the immense crowd turn toward the sun at its highest, free of all clouds. The sun seemed to us like a plate of dull silver. It could be seen without the least effort. It did not blind or burn. It seemed as though an eclipse were taking place. All of a sudden a tremendous shout burst forth, ‘Miracle, miracle!’
“Before the astonished eyes of the people, whose attitude carried us back to Biblical times, and who, white with terror, heads uncovered, gazed at the sun which trembled and made brusque and unheard of movement beyond all cosmic laws, the sun seemed literally to dance in the sky.
“Immediately afterward the people asked each other if they saw anything and what they had seen. The greatest number avowed that they saw the sun trembling and dancing; others declared they saw the smiling face of the Blessed Virgin herself. They swore that the sun turned around on itself as if it were a wheel of fireworks and had fallen almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays. Some said they saw it change colors successively.”

This CONFIRMS that SOMETHING HUGE happened the day before, or the newspapers wouldn't have printed these articles.  The people would never have showed up there in the first place if it weren't for the children announcing there would be a miracle there 3 months earlier. It's obvious you people are trying to avoid the inevitable answer here!

Yeah, that's it re-post two newspaper articles you've already lied about. It's not like you've any reputation to protect on here liar for Jebus.

(August 8, 2017 at 1:24 pm)pabsta Wrote:

(August 8, 2017 at 12:54 am)Cecelia Wrote: If the Sun danced, then why did nobody else in the country see it?  Or anybody else in anywhere else in the world where it was day time?  Why only those people in that one spot?  Seems kind of odd to me that only those '70,000' people (the actual number there is likely exaggerated)  would see the sun dancing.  If you were 200 miles away, you should still be able to see it.  Because that's the thing about the sun.  You can see it pretty much everywhere.  And why is it not in the astrological record?

But you won't address this, because you can't.

Nor can you address the fact that around half of the people there said they saw nothing, and some had differing accounts of what happened.  Not to mention that it's not very miraculous in the first place.  (oh look!  the sun is dancing.  I'm sure this'll end world hunger/cause world peace/etc..")

What happened that day?  A bunch of people went to a place, expecting to see something.  Some probably saw something from the power of suggestion (and perhaps from staring at the sun too long..).  I can't say for certain what happened, because I wasn't there.  Nobody here was.  There's no pictures of the event taking place.  There's certainly no video.  We can only go by eyewitness accounts, which are at best hazy.  Remember that many people came from all over to see this event, so they were expecting to see something, though.  They were already believers.  (A lot of good this 'miracle' did, convincing people who already believed that what they believe is true).    So they were susceptible to suggestion.

I've already addressed this in a previous post. The author claims that from his research, the miracle was visible within a 600 square mile area. Testimonials show that everyone who was there that day saw it. There are no testimonials of people who were on the spot who said they saw nothing. Reading other testimonials confirms this. Remember, THOUSANDS of pages of testimonials were reviewed by the Catholic Church over 13 years. And as I already mentioned, the book I mentioned gives many examples of people that were NOT believers and who went to the site to mock the whole idea. They left as believers. You should really get the book because everything you are saying is covered in it.

Why do you believe the book?

I like my translation better.... So much more faithful to the source material.
If you can find the article from Diário de notícias in Portuguese, I can translate it for you, too.

(August 8, 2017 at 1:42 pm)pabsta Wrote:

(August 8, 2017 at 5:42 am)pocaracas Wrote: According to this site, this is what was reported:


Which translates roughly (by me) to:


So there you go.
The crowd was estimated at 30 to 40 thousand, not 70.
Most saw a trembling, at best. Spread out, some people spurred everyone around them to "see" something more...
Even though, many people remained unfased... as if nothing much had happened.
And a few fringe folk claimed the more outlandish things, like the sun coming down and changing color and spinning

So... at best, one can reliable say that people saw the sun tremble.
Is that so unlikely, given that it had been raining and it was now a radiant sunshine? At its zenith, it was noon, after all... as water evaporates and rises, some atmospheric lensing effects are bound to happen. Specially, even, in a place with the topology of Cova da Iria... luckily, the clue is in the name: cova translates to "hole in the ground"... the region has a bit of a parabolic shape, which helps to produce some cool effects in the Summer months.
Similar to the distortions we all see just above a hot road - hey look, a flying car!!


Can't say it's a common phenomenon, but the cameras present on site failed to capture it...

Here's what they did capture:

---

---

Yeah... people... even the ones looking up, have a bit of a skeptical look about them...

I already previously posted the English translations to what was printed in the newspapers the following day. I will paste them here again since you obviously missed it:

Diario de Noticias:
“At one o’clock the rain stopped. The sky had a certain gray clarity but seemed to suddenly be getting darker. The sun seemed veiled in gauze. We could look at it without strain. The gray tint of mother-of-pearl began changing as if into a silver disc that was growing and growing... until it broke the clouds! Then the silvery sun, still shrouded in that grayish light, began to rotate and wander within the circle of the receded clouds!
“The people cried out with one voice. Thousands, transported by ecstasy fell to their knees upon the muddy ground. Then, as if it were shining through the stained glass windows of a great cathedral, the light became a rare blue, spreading its rays upon the nave... Slowly the blue faded away and now the light seemed to be filtered through yellow. Yellow spots were falling now upon the white kerchiefs and dark shirts of coarse wool. They were spots which repeated themselves indefinitely over the landscape. All the people were weeping and praying bareheaded, weighted down by the greatness of the miracle. These were seconds, moments, that seemed hours...”
 
O Século:
“From beside the parked carriages and where many thousands stood, afraid to descend into the muddy soil of the Cova da Iria, we saw the immense crowd turn toward the sun at its highest, free of all clouds. The sun seemed to us like a plate of dull silver. It could be seen without the least effort. It did not blind or burn. It seemed as though an eclipse were taking place. All of a sudden a tremendous shout burst forth, ‘Miracle, miracle!’
“Before the astonished eyes of the people, whose attitude carried us back to Biblical times, and who, white with terror, heads uncovered, gazed at the sun which trembled and made brusque and unheard of movement beyond all cosmic laws, the sun seemed literally to dance in the sky.
“Immediately afterward the people asked each other if they saw anything and what they had seen. The greatest number avowed that they saw the sun trembling and dancing; others declared they saw the smiling face of the Blessed Virgin herself. They swore that the sun turned around on itself as if it were a wheel of fireworks and had fallen almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays. Some said they saw it change colors successively.”

This CONFIRMS that SOMETHING HUGE happened the day before, or the newspapers wouldn't have printed these articles.  The people would never have showed up there in the first place if it weren't for the children announcing there would be a miracle there 3 months earlier. It's obvious you people are trying to avoid the inevitable answer here!

That people came expecting to see a miracle?  So what? You're obviously trying to keep rationality from seeping into your thinking process.

Hey, pabsta (bluea ribbona?),

What is your faith so fucking weak that you need validation from a bunch of atheists?

(August 8, 2017 at 8:52 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(August 7, 2017 at 8:48 pm)pabsta Wrote: To answer your question, I just skimmed through chapters 3 and 4 in "Meet the Witnesses", and the author explains that a Marxist group of revolutionaries had taken the country by force in 1910, so at the time of the miracle in 1917, they were in complete power and had control over the media. In the years that followed the miracle, there were 3 primary newspapers that continually made fun of the miracle. The revolutionaries publicly vowed to remove all religion from the country within 2 generations and there was much bloodshed in the years that followed the miracle. Yet the crowds continued to grow at the site of the miracle throughout the 1920s, once recorded at 400,000 in 1926. What wound up happening is, even some of the revolutionaries were convinced of the miracle, and it eventually led the whole revolution to fail.
 
The book also speaks of multiple atheists who came to make fun of the miracle and were immediate believers. The book also mentions that from what the author could gather, that the miracle was visible within 600 square miles. There is just too much to relating these short posts. I would suggest getting a copy of the book.

Cath-y has made me forget catholics can be evangelists too.  Did you by any chance go to catholic apologist school with a guy named Randy?

Pabst, why are you so sure there must be supernatural things or occurences?  How do you even define "supernatural".  After all no one directly witnesses anything supernatural.  All we can do is infer it.  It only comes up at all when our ability to explain a sequence of events in terms of known natural causes falls short.  But our failure to understand anything's natural causes can be the result of our own ignorance individually or that of the culture we live in.  So why jump to the conclusion that there are any categorical phenomenon which exist entirely apart from everything else we know that can never be resolved into a more comprehensive natural explanation?  The 'supernatural' can never be more than a wild hunch.  The more important question is why you've fallen prey to such a thing.

I am so sure about the existence of the supernatural because I've personally known many people throughout my entire life who have been directly involved in the paranormal, either helping others with the problem, or experiencing it directly. You look at the fear in their eyes and their fear of even talking about some of it and you know it's no joke. I wouldn't say it's common, but it is nevertheless real.

A quick example. My father-in-law was a real estate agent for 30 years. Only once in his entire career did he come across the supernatural. He had just sold a condo to a family, and suddenly he heard they had abandoned the house and their belongings and were suing him. Come to find out the condo was completely haunted, stuff flying all over the rooms, something biting the children's toes in the middle of the night, stuff going on in the attic, the whole deal as is seen on episodes of, "A Haunting". This kind of problem has happened enough over the years where there is an actual law in real estate stating that the real estate broker MUST let the buyer know if the house is haunted. This family was suing my father-in-law claiming he broke this law. Long story short, the problem in the house was very difficult to eradicate, and it became very well known in the area. It took a Catholic priest to eventually fix the problem.

Again, if I were you, I would get in touch with either a paranormal investigator, a Catholic priest, or both, and volunteer your time helping on calls. If you don't have the time, only have them call you for serious cases. You will find out very quickly about the existence of the supernatural. Don't forget to bring an extra pair of shorts.

(August 8, 2017 at 2:03 pm)pabsta Wrote: I am so sure about the existence of the supernatural because I've personally known many people throughout my entire life who have been directly involved in the paranormal, either helping others with the problem, or experiencing it directly. You look at the fear in their eyes and their fear of even talking about some of it and you know it's no joke. I wouldn't say it's common, but it is nevertheless real.

A quick example. My father-in-law was a real estate agent for 30 years. Only once in his entire career did he come across the supernatural. He had just sold a condo to a family, and suddenly he heard they had abandoned the house and their belongings and were suing him. Come to find out the condo was completely haunted, stuff flying all over the rooms, something biting the children's toes in the middle of the night, stuff going on in the attic, the whole deal as is seen on episodes of, "A Haunting". This kind of problem has happened enough over the years where there is an actual law in real estate stating that the real estate broker MUST let the buyer know if the house is haunted. This family was suing my father-in-law claiming he broke this law. Long story short, the problem in the house was very difficult to eradicate, and it became very well known in the area. It took a Catholic priest to eventually fix the problem.

Again, if I were you, I would get in touch with either a paranormal investigator, a Catholic priest, or both, and volunteer your time helping on calls. If you don't have the time, only have them call you for serious cases. You will find out very quickly about the existence of the supernatural. Don't forget to bring an extra pair of shorts.

Your a silly, silly person! You'll believe anything.

(August 8, 2017 at 2:03 pm)pabsta Wrote: [quote='Whateverist' pid='1599242' dateline='1502196748']
A quick example. My father-in-law was a real estate agent for 30 years. Only once in his entire career did he come across the supernatural. He had just sold a condo to a family, and suddenly he heard they had abandoned the house and their belongings and were suing him. Come to find out the condo was completely haunted, stuff flying all over the rooms, something biting the children's toes in the middle of the night, stuff going on in the attic, the whole deal as is seen on episodes of, "A Haunting". This kind of problem has happened enough over the years where there is an actual law in real estate stating that the real estate broker MUST let the buyer know if the house is haunted. This family was suing my father-in-law claiming he broke this law. Long story short, the problem in the house was very difficult to eradicate, and it became very well known in the area. It took a Catholic priest to eventually fix the problem.

I'm calling your bullshit, right here PBR. Since your father-in-law was sued, you can give us the case number and let us verify the particulars. Civil and criminal cases are all matters of public record, after all.

Time to put up or shut up. Case number to prove your claim or shut the fuck up.

(Bullshit privacy excuse in 3, 2, 1....)

(August 8, 2017 at 1:54 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(August 8, 2017 at 1:42 pm)pabsta Wrote: I already previously posted the English translations to what was printed in the newspapers the following day. I will paste them here again since you obviously missed it:

Diario de Noticias:
“At one o’clock the rain stopped. The sky had a certain gray clarity but seemed to suddenly be getting darker. The sun seemed veiled in gauze. We could look at it without strain. The gray tint of mother-of-pearl began changing as if into a silver disc that was growing and growing... until it broke the clouds! Then the silvery sun, still shrouded in that grayish light, began to rotate and wander within the circle of the receded clouds!
“The people cried out with one voice. Thousands, transported by ecstasy fell to their knees upon the muddy ground. Then, as if it were shining through the stained glass windows of a great cathedral, the light became a rare blue, spreading its rays upon the nave... Slowly the blue faded away and now the light seemed to be filtered through yellow. Yellow spots were falling now upon the white kerchiefs and dark shirts of coarse wool. They were spots which repeated themselves indefinitely over the landscape. All the people were weeping and praying bareheaded, weighted down by the greatness of the miracle. These were seconds, moments, that seemed hours...”
 
O Século:
“From beside the parked carriages and where many thousands stood, afraid to descend into the muddy soil of the Cova da Iria, we saw the immense crowd turn toward the sun at its highest, free of all clouds. The sun seemed to us like a plate of dull silver. It could be seen without the least effort. It did not blind or burn. It seemed as though an eclipse were taking place. All of a sudden a tremendous shout burst forth, ‘Miracle, miracle!’
“Before the astonished eyes of the people, whose attitude carried us back to Biblical times, and who, white with terror, heads uncovered, gazed at the sun which trembled and made brusque and unheard of movement beyond all cosmic laws, the sun seemed literally to dance in the sky.
“Immediately afterward the people asked each other if they saw anything and what they had seen. The greatest number avowed that they saw the sun trembling and dancing; others declared they saw the smiling face of the Blessed Virgin herself. They swore that the sun turned around on itself as if it were a wheel of fireworks and had fallen almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays. Some said they saw it change colors successively.”

This CONFIRMS that SOMETHING HUGE happened the day before, or the newspapers wouldn't have printed these articles.  The people would never have showed up there in the first place if it weren't for the children announcing there would be a miracle there 3 months earlier. It's obvious you people are trying to avoid the inevitable answer here!

That people came expecting to see a miracle?  So what? You're obviously trying to keep rationality from seeping into your thinking process.

He has no thinking process.

Therein lies the problem.

(August 8, 2017 at 2:03 pm)pabsta Wrote:

(August 8, 2017 at 8:52 am)Whateverist Wrote: Cath-y has made me forget catholics can be evangelists too.  Did you by any chance go to catholic apologist school with a guy named Randy?

Pabst, why are you so sure there must be supernatural things or occurences?  How do you even define "supernatural".  After all no one directly witnesses anything supernatural.  All we can do is infer it.  It only comes up at all when our ability to explain a sequence of events in terms of known natural causes falls short.  But our failure to understand anything's natural causes can be the result of our own ignorance individually or that of the culture we live in.  So why jump to the conclusion that there are any categorical phenomenon which exist entirely apart from everything else we know that can never be resolved into a more comprehensive natural explanation?  The 'supernatural' can never be more than a wild hunch.  The more important question is why you've fallen prey to such a thing.

I am so sure about the existence of the supernatural because I've personally known many people throughout my entire life who have been directly involved in the paranormal, either helping others with the problem, or experiencing it directly. You look at the fear in their eyes and their fear of even talking about some of it and you know it's no joke. I wouldn't say it's common, but it is nevertheless real.

A quick example. My father-in-law was a real estate agent for 30 years. Only once in his entire career did he come across the supernatural. He had just sold a condo to a family, and suddenly he heard they had abandoned the house and their belongings and were suing him. Come to find out the condo was completely haunted, stuff flying all over the rooms, something biting the children's toes in the middle of the night, stuff going on in the attic, the whole deal as is seen on episodes of, "A Haunting". This kind of problem has happened enough over the years where there is an actual law in real estate stating that the real estate broker MUST let the buyer know if the house is haunted. This family was suing my father-in-law claiming he broke this law. Long story short, the problem in the house was very difficult to eradicate, and it became very well known in the area. It took a Catholic priest to eventually fix the problem.

Again, if I were you, I would get in touch with either a paranormal investigator, a Catholic priest, or both, and volunteer your time helping on calls. If you don't have the time, only have them call you for serious cases. You will find out very quickly about the existence of the supernatural. Don't forget to bring an extra pair of shorts.

Don't worry about me. If you're legit I just hope you are somewhere safe where you can't hurt yourself or others.

Using "supernatural" indicates that you've been indoctrinated into certain archaic societal norms. But the sincere use of the word "paranormal" is a kind of litmus test for bat shit crazy.