It doesn't matter whether or not a limited human being thinks that life is a net good, that won't excuse your omnipotent creator for it's culpability in whatever is tipping the scales to bad in such a calculation in the first place.

(November 2, 2017 at 10:10 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(November 2, 2017 at 9:10 pm)possibletarian Wrote: For me this is simply not a problem, I believe we procreate hopefully we born in a country that allows us freedoms and then enjoy life to the full.

I have a few questions though for all who believe in original sin, given that sin had entered the world why did god allow more people to be born he could simply have stopped procreation and allowed the generation of sin to die out, just like he barred a generation of Israelites from entering the promised land because of sin.

Question 1
If he had simply stopped reproduction then only those responsible will have suffered, instead of the insanity of being born to abusers, religious nut jobs, along with death disease and suffering then he could simply have started again.  We do it it with cattle, animals, even humans if they have a disease that threatens the rest of us  or the rest of a heard of cattle, they isolate and often kill the diseased cattle to stop it infecting others.

I'm not asking why god allows suffering, but rather why he allowed people to be born who had not even existed before procreation to enter a world of suffering?


Question 2
If there is some kind  of argument that there has to be a number god has to reach, then where are these spirits/souls before they are born into human bodies ?  Do you perhaps believe in some kind of re-incarnation, or souls waiting for an incarnation ?

These really are questions for any theist, contributions though from anyone are welcome.

It seems implicit in your question 1 that God was surprised by the fall. He was not. His purpose did not change because he always knew it would happen. Why in the world do you imagine that "starting over" would produce different results? Without perfect knowledge, free will will always result in sin eventually. 


Regarding question 2, souls don't exist until conception.

And he also knew he would have to wipe out humanity with a flood?  Oh, I just FEEL the love...

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(November 3, 2017 at 12:45 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(November 2, 2017 at 9:10 pm)possibletarian Wrote: For me this is simply not a problem, I believe we procreate hopefully we born in a country that allows us freedoms and then enjoy life to the full.

I have a few questions though for all who believe in original sin, given that sin had entered the world why did god allow more people to be born he could simply have stopped procreation and allowed the generation of sin to die out, just like he barred a generation of Israelites from entering the promised land because of sin.

Question 1
If he had simply stopped reproduction then only those responsible will have suffered, instead of the insanity of being born to abusers, religious nut jobs, along with death disease and suffering then he could simply have started again.  We do it it with cattle, animals, even humans if they have a disease that threatens the rest of us  or the rest of a heard of cattle, they isolate and often kill the diseased cattle to stop it infecting others.

It was God's will to continue with His creation, even though it was contaminated by sin and cursed by God. God's will is His and His purpose isn't fully known. God wants to show all that love is greater than sin and without the continuation of the creation that wouldn't be possible.

So you don't know that it was god's will, as we don't fully understand it.  Maybe it wasn't his will.  Maybe he had no choice.  Or maybe it all just a story.

(November 3, 2017 at 12:45 am)Godscreated Wrote: Souls are created for the person who is conceived, the breath of life might give you a hint that this is true.

GC

An estimated 50% of pregnancies are spontaneously terminated ~three weeks after conception. What happens to all those souls? Are they recycled or do they evaporate in a puff of logic?

(November 2, 2017 at 11:33 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(November 2, 2017 at 10:10 pm)SteveII Wrote: It seems implicit in your question 1 that God was surprised by the fall.

Not at all, but that raises an even more serious question, why did he do it at all in that case, knowing his creation was going to be subject to untold suffering ?

Then your question is simply why did God create the world we have. Why do you prejudice the question with the phrase "untold suffering". Do you think that on average there is more suffering in the world than not? 

Quote:

Quote:He was not. His purpose did not change because he always knew it would happen.

Then what was his purpose ?
How do you know?
And where in the bible does god say he knew ?

A great summary for God's purpose can be found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/purpose-of-man.html

Regarding if God knew mankind would sin: https://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew...e-sin.html

Quote:

Quote:Why in the world do you imagine that "starting over" would produce different results?

If sin and therefore untold suffering and evil is inevitable then what's the point of judging on the basis of  free will or choice ?

What is with you and "untold suffering"? Have you had a difficult life or are you poisoning the well to make your argument stronger? It's depressing!

Quote:

Quote:Without perfect knowledge, free will will always result in sin eventually.

How could you possibly know that ?
Is there such a thing as free will ?

Have you every watched children behave over time? No one needs to teach them to be selfish, disobedient, and willful. It is in our nature to do so. If there is no such thing as free will, then no one is ultimately responsible for their actions. Christianity unravels. 

Quote:

Quote:Regarding question 2, souls don't exist until conception.

Then as i ask, why not stop reproduction and let the ones who sinned die out?  god seemed to do the opposite.

Apparently God's purpose was not achieved by making two human beings. See above link.

(November 2, 2017 at 10:10 pm)SteveII Wrote: It seems implicit in your question 1 that God was surprised by the fall. He was not. His purpose did not change because he always knew it would happen. Why in the world do you imagine that "starting over" would produce different results? Without perfect knowledge, free will will always result in sin eventually. 

So when God told Adam and Eve not to touch the tree he was being a manipulative asshole because he knew they'd do it anyway, perhaps partly because of his own disingenuous reverse-psychology. Noted.

@ Steve number two

So if your God has perfect Knowledge, does he know how it feels to fear the unknown?

(November 3, 2017 at 5:36 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(November 3, 2017 at 12:45 am)Godscreated Wrote: It was God's will to continue with His creation, even though it was contaminated by sin and cursed by God.

It wasn't god's will to continue, assuming that god is all knowing it was god's intention to create a evil suffering world from the beginning.

You need to show some proof of your statement, it sounds more like your imagination than what the Bible tells us. What could an atheist possibly know about the will of God?

Quote:God's will is His and His purpose isn't fully known.

possibletarian Wrote:Yes the old 'his ways are not our ways' get out of jail free card. However given that why do you pretend to know what god's purpose or intention was ? Why not simply say that you do not know?

 I do know, I have studied the Bible where the answers are, if you haven't seen them that fault belongs to you. The bold by me, this must be something you pulled out of the spiritual hole you live in, an empty hole.

Quote:God wants to show all that love is greater than sin and without the continuation of the creation that wouldn't be possible.

possibletarian Wrote:Again how could you possibly know? you can't have the excuse of a mysterious unfathomable god one minute, and then know what he planned the next.
Why did he want to show his love was greater than sin, to whom? we had not even been created yet (according to the bible), if he knew we would suffer so badly isn't it a bit like a parent who tortures their child, then when in agonising pain picks it up and hugs it saying "I wanted you to know my love and compassion"

Isn't that like a co dependant god ?

Again I study the Bible, I'm not like you who goes around spouting what you want to be true. I didn't say that we couldn't know some of what God's intentions are, I said we can't know it all, you are a typical atheist who has no idea what you are talking about. You think you are smart and logical but you show Christians what you do not know and that is a tremendous amount.
He is showing His love is greater that sin to all His creation, at the time of judgement no one will have an argument against Him.
Not hardly, God didn't cause the pain and suffering, Adam and Eve got it started and sinful man has continued till this very day.
God has never be dependent on anything nor anyone, He was living an eternity before creation without anyone else anywhere. We know this from the Bible, you would to if you would just read it instead of spouting what you hear others saying.

Quote:Souls are created for the person who is conceived, the breath of life might give you a hint that this is true.

GC

 

possibletarian Wrote:Then that is my question, if god went through with it, it's why if those souls had not yet been touched by sin why then introduce them to it.

 Those souls were not created yet, they are created at the time of conception. God is following through with His plan regardless of what you think or want to believe. The future is yours to live as you want to and with sin in your life you should expect pain and suffering. Even Christians go through pain and suffering because we are not perfect, we are saved for an eternal life with God.

GC

OP asks silly question about an event that never occurred. Christians respond with fantasy and pretend they have something valid to the conversation. Amusing!

(November 3, 2017 at 6:02 pm)chimp3 Wrote: OP asks silly question about an event that never occurred. Christians respond with fantasy and pretend they have something valid to the conversation. Amusing!

Is it fantasy to assert stomach mucus proves god's existence ??

God exists because we have a windpipe, get over it atheists.