(November 7, 2017 at 9:59 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 9:52 am)Mathilda Wrote: There is no god.

There is no evil.

There are just acts and people that others describe as evil. It's a subjective judgment that people make.

Then its a paradox to use the argument from evil to dismiss God. It has to acknowledge him and deny him at the same time.

I am not using the argument from evil to dismiss your god. I am saying that there are no gods for other reasons, mainly that the very concept cannot be defined and that what we know about physics means that any possible being that you could hope to describe as a god cannot exist.

I am dismissing the 'problem of  evil' because I see no reason for it to be a problem if it is a subjective opinion.

The two are entirely unrelated. So no paradox.

(November 7, 2017 at 10:02 am)Cyberman Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 9:53 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: So it's not objectively wrong to rape children? How about torturing a child to death?

But those things don't matter, as MK has taught us. All those children have to do is be patient and it will all be worth it. See, that's the trap of painting on a canvas so broad that the individual brushstrokes - the children in this example - get swallowed up.

To be fair, he didn't say it doesn't matter. He said a limited time of suffering is worth the eternal happiness that will come after it.

Not for those who don't get to go to jannah...........which would include idol worshipping catholics.   

@Khemical
Yes, this is true. The results of the world could be different, but given what we chose and what his creation all chose, God is taking and has been taking the best path with us, and part of the path he chooses, is opening doors to prayer by which he responds and hence putting in our hands to improves things with him at our service, and part of the path he chooses is relieving oppression by people like Moses, time to time, and causing the oppressors and those who think they are superpower on earth to perish out of compassionately warning them through Messengers.

And part of the path he has taken is a promise to relieve the world of all oppression and heal every illness and cure every disease, and stop chaos and destruction in the land and sea through a chosen guide and leader.

And part of the path is given us the choice to be grateful or ungrateful to that promise, to help hasten the time or delay the time,  and there is two promises, one that of a mercy and the other which is not intended but is promised if we rebel and disbelieve and is written in the book, that all cities will be destroyed or punished severely before the day of judgment if the path of humanity chooses is negative.

And part of the path he has taken is there are nights of value and there are days of God, the latter being when oppressors are destroyed and miracles manifest the true ruler and king, mainly God through his chosen ones.

(November 7, 2017 at 9:53 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 9:28 am)Mathilda Wrote: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window ...

There is no god and no objective morality.

So it's not objectively wrong to rape children? How about torturing a child to death?

Nope, not objectively wrong.  But, and this will look like exactly the same thing, it just so happens you will find near unanimity of agreement that those things are wrong subjectively.  The fact that it is only near unanimity accords better with the evil being a subjective phenomenon than an objective one.

(November 7, 2017 at 10:09 am)Khemikal Wrote: Not for those who don't get to go to jannah...........which would include idol worshipping catholics.   

You know the book so much but haven't even got to its interpreters nor reflected. It seems Atheists understand what a holy book if from God would say and how God's words should be interpreted better then every human right?

Just another one of those things Atheists are keeping Theists honest with. They know how Theists ought to interpret their holy books and know how God would create the world, and know everything about objective morality even though they don't acknowledge an objective way of knowing nor a connection to knowing it without falsehood.

(November 7, 2017 at 9:53 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 9:28 am)Mathilda Wrote: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window ...

There is no god and no objective morality.

So it's not objectively wrong to rape children? How about torturing a child to death?

For it to be objectively wrong you would first have to define what 'wrong' actually is to the point of being able to physically measure it.

You won't be able to come up with such a definition that does not fail in other situations.

(November 7, 2017 at 9:53 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Personally i cant wrap my head around the concept of these things being wrong only as a matter of opinion rather than fact. At the same time though, without God, you cant really make the case for objective morality... So you have to concede that raping, torturing, and killing a 4 year old is only "wrong" as a matter of personal opinion, like thinking the best color is pink.

And why is it such a problem to accept that raping, torturing and killing a 4 year old is "wrong" as a matter of personal opinion? Surely the only reason is because you have such strong opinions against such acts because of your biologically evolved instincts.

Let me show you pictures of evil using your definition (don't worry, they aren't disturbing):



And why?

Animals Can Be Giant Jerks

@ Mystic
I would expect a holy book from god not to be such blatantly obvious shit, yeah.  

Meanwhile, your god couldn't accomplish his purpose without malaria. Some god.

(November 7, 2017 at 10:13 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 9:53 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: So it's not objectively wrong to rape children? How about torturing a child to death?

Nope, not objectively wrong.  But, and this will look like exactly the same thing, it just so happens you will find near unanimity of agreement that those things are wrong subjectively.  The fact that it is only near unanimity accords better with the evil being a subjective phenomenon than an objective one.

I think the opposite. I think the fact that there is such a universal consensus through all cultures and countries that certain things are wrong, supports the belief that morality is objective and that we have an inherent understanding of that. No other "opinion" is so universal as it is when it comes to these black and white moral issues.

(November 7, 2017 at 9:53 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 9:28 am)Mathilda Wrote: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window ...

There is no god and no objective morality.

Personally i cant wrap my head around the concept of these things being wrong only as a matter of opinion rather than fact. At the same time though, without God, you cant really make the case for objective morality... So you have to concede that raping, torturing, and killing a 4 year old is only "wrong" as a matter of personal opinion, like thinking the best color is pink.

The head you can't wrap around the concept of subjective evil is where subjectivity resides.  Your revulsion that the vilest of evils can only be measured subjectively, is itself another subjective evaluation.  This is not a point against subjectivity, perhaps it is time to recognize that all evaluations are subjective enterprises, moral ones included.