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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 12:38 pm
All part of my sinister plan to watch christians deny god three times before the cock crows. I have choice NT "beneficence" as well, when we cross that bridge. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 12:38 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 11:51 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 11:31 am)pool the matey Wrote: The hell... That's just bizarre. That's not right, that's not okay, I don't know but turning a blind eye to evil is just as bad as siding with it.. Like seriously, this is common sense I can only imagine they don't actually believe it in their hearts either at least I hope..
I don't think it's accurate to say they "turn a blind eye."
They still think it's absolutely heinous, and they still think it's much more horrible than when animals do it (despite using animal examples to somehow prove that it's no different), and they still think it should be strictly against the law everywhere, and they still think the person responsible is a piece of shit who should receive justified punishment like life behind bars.
So the way I see it, saying "evil doesn't exist" and "nothing is objectively wrong" and "it's only a matter of personal opinion" is words only. By all intents and purposes, they do see child rape, torture, and murder as an evil act and it takes an evil person to do it. It doesn't make any sense in my mind, because when I think about things that are merely a matter of personal opinion or taste and there is no right/wrong answer, I don't get so fired up about a different opinion. And I certainly don't think people should be punished or seen as bad for a different personal opinion when there is no correct right/wrong answer.
But it is what it is. The important thing is that everyone participating in this thread is a good person who would always denounce such actions.
Yup. That's how I see it too, I don't think anyone with a conscience can not think child rape is objectively bad or evil, some people just don't like the words but still believe in it(they just use different words but it's the same thing). I don't understand it either but it is what it is.
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 12:42 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 12:43 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 7, 2017 at 12:38 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Yup. That's how I see it too, I don't think anyone with a conscience can not think child rape is objectively bad or evil, some people just don't like the words but still believe in it(they just use different words but it's the same thing). I don't understand it either but it is what it is. How long is that list anyway, of things you don't understand..if you had to guess?
It seems as though, if you wanted to understand....those atheists have offered an explanation, in this thread. So there's that. I;m not having any trouble understanding their position, even though I don't agree with it. Maybe the problem is you, not them?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 12:47 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 12:48 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(November 7, 2017 at 11:38 am)Cyberman Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 10:04 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: To be fair, he didn't say it doesn't matter. He said a limited time of suffering is worth the eternal happiness that will come after it.
Yes I know, I acknowledged that. My "those things don't matter" was in response to you, not him. Clearly in the grand scheme of things human suffering doesn't matter to anyone but us. But could you look an abused child in the face and tell it with any degree of sincerity that its suffering is worth it in the end?
It's not the suffering specifically that's worth it in the end. It's his existance as a human being. Our existance comes with enduring some suffering in this world (for some more than others), but it also comes with eternal happiness in the next. For that, our existance is worth it. It wouldn't be better to never have existed.
Then comes the question of why suffering exists in the first place, and that's a whole other topic that I think we were just talking about in a different thread recently.
(November 7, 2017 at 11:46 am)Mathilda Wrote: Imagine a being that harvested humans, kept them in cramped conditions so they couldn't even properly stand up so they developed sores around their body. Force fed them to grow really quickly then slaughtered them by slicing their throats and hanging them upside down so the blood poured out, or crushing them alive, and then ate their bodies and wore their skin. You'd consider such a being evil, but it's no different to what we do to other animals.
Christians only seem to accept something as evil if it's done by a human to another human. Otherwise it's animal behaviour.
For the record, I don't think it's right to treat animals inhumanely before slaughter. With that being said, I don't think it's immoral for a lion, or bear, or wolf or whatever it is to eat us.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 12:49 pm
Catholic_Lady Wrote:It's not the suffering specifically that's worth it in the end. It's his existance as a human being. Our existance comes with enduring some suffering in this world (for some more than others), but it also comes with eternal happiness in the next.
Well put.
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 12:49 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 12:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I wonder if that's what goes through the mind of a rape victim while they're being assualted?
"Hey, at least I got to be a human being, Thanks Jesus!"
Seems to me, that in that scenario, it's the rapist that has more to thank Jesus for. After all, it's a great day to be alive. Take it away Travis!
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 12:50 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 11:47 am)Cyberman Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 11:12 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: They don't think evil exists in the first place. So a person who rapes, tortures, and kills a child is not an evil person. And doing those things to a child is not an evil thing to do.
Sorry, but where the fuck do you get off, strawmanning like that? Personally I think people are fully capable of perpetrating acts which we might label as evil. It's the notion of evil as a force independent of human behaviour, that's where I draw the line. It's probably safe to say that a lot of us would tend to agree on that.
But to go from there to saying that we think that raping a child etc is not an evil thing to do is unutterably disgusting. If you have an ounce of decency, you should apologise to every atheist on this forum.
Strawman? Mathilda specifically said evil doesn't exist, and I think at least one other person agreed with her. If you think evil exists, then my post didn't apply to you. It applied specifically to those we were conversing with who think it doesn't.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:04 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 1:08 pm by LadyForCamus.)
And this is where I'll probably bow out, because I really can't stand the way theists bitch and moan about how horrible we atheists are for not believing in objective morality, yet out of the opposite side of your mouths, you'll defend your god up and down for allowing the most heinous of atrocities to occur with the, 'Oh, god and his mysterious ways,' excuse. AKA, the laziest cop-out in human history.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:06 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 1:12 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
As far as defining evil, as some have requested, I'm perfectly fine using the dictionary definition of it.
Quote:Evil: profoundly immoral and malevolent.
- "his evil deeds"
- synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious;
I think something is either evil or it isn't. I don't think it's a matter of opinion whether or not something is evil. As Mathilda pointed out, not believing in objective morality is consistent with not believing in evil, and vice versa.
(November 7, 2017 at 1:04 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: And this is where I'll probably bow out, because I really can't stand the way theists bitch and moan about how horrible we atheists are for not believing in objective morality, yet out of the opposite side of your mouths, you'll defend your god up and down for allowing the most heinous of atrocities to occur with the, 'Oh, god and his mysterious ways,' excuse. AKA, the laziest form of cop-out in human history.
I hope you're not referring to me, since I specifically said "I think everyone here is a good person who would denounce any evil act, regardless of whether they believe in evil or objective morality... and that's what matters."
Looks like Pool said the same thing, so I'm not sure who you are referring to.
(edited to fix error in wording)
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:12 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 8:52 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Whatever suffering possible in this world, if we are patient and steadfast in midst of it, and in midst peril, out of love of the Great Ultimate Beauty that sees us exactly as we are, the love that ensues to us from that loving being, is worth it, as well as the honourable position we will have in its absolute eye which is the vision of the absolute truth.
I suppose some people might see that as a solution to the problem of evil.
Myself, I don't think it counts. It amounts to choosing to convince oneself that there is no contradiction in the Abrahamic conception of deity, facts be darned.
Morituri Delendi!
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