(November 7, 2017 at 10:39 am)Aegon Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 10:36 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, your parents disrespected you by having sex and then not having aborted you. Interesting.

I'm joking, silly!

I am thinking, its funny, considering we are fucked into existence.

Atlas: yes, I have Muslim friends. I am well aware that Muslims and many Christian denominations believe I will go to Hell for being Catholic.

@LP
Doesn't seem mysterious from where I sit, just stupid. Course, I don't think it has anything to do with a god. It's his followers hangups we're dealing with on this one.

(November 7, 2017 at 1:38 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Yup, I get what you're saying. People that engages in vile evil acts like that will certainly face judgment one day and when that day comes it won't matter to the slightest whether THEY think what they did was okay, the only thing that'll matter will be what they did and just that.

If part of the 'objectivity' you attach to morality resides in your expectation of final judgement in this life or another, then we have nothing to discuss.  I think you're simply mistaken about that.  If that is all that objectivity amounts to, I'll pass.  

Meanwhile are you ever going to tell me what is wrong with acknowledging that moral judgment is a subjective experience.  The only sense in which morality is object is in terms of the universality with which some judgements are held.  You can -as I believe Khem does- also argue that some acts are objectively immoral assuming some base level of commonly held beliefs such as avoiding harming persons unnecessarily.

(November 7, 2017 at 2:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Atlas: yes, I have Muslim friends. I am well aware that Muslims and many Christian denominations believe I will go to Hell for being Catholic.

Well, if that happens, I'll be there too, so yeah, there's your eternal torment.

(November 7, 2017 at 2:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 2:15 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I don't see why you keep equating "subjective" with "personal opinion".  Subjects are beings possessed of personhood who experience a wide range of things: sensations, emotions, feelings, ideas, intuitions, faith, conviction, remorse, etc.  Everyone of those experiences accrue to the individual by virtue of their being a subject - not on the basis of their material state as an object.  You can't say all those things are "just their personal opinion, something arbitrary and easily changed".  That just isn't accurate.  I doubt if you consider your faith just your personal opinion, I know I don't hold my moral convictions that way.

I meant the morality of it, whether its right or wrong, being personal opinion.

Well then what does subjective or objective have to with that.  Do you think all subjective experience is on the same level as the holding of an opinion?  I don't think you've thought this through.

(November 7, 2017 at 2:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: @LP
Doesn't seem mysterious from where I sit, just stupid.  Course, I don't think it has anything to do with a god.  It's his followers hangups we're dealing with on this one.

By this time that god guy, should've zapped me and you, Min first. Personal hangups is a thing. Claiming objectivity with a very subjective idea of a god, as it was demonstrated by the theists around here.

While they shoot themselves in the foot, perhaps studies made, show the very problem of child rape. I have a shrink sister. Handy. We get to be bombarded with her knowledge.

@Whatevs
IMO, at least some of the times a person tells you about their subjective position of some moral issue, when you ask why they hold it you get an objective description of just what it is that makes that thing x immoral.  Perhaps people don't realize that they're describing an objective morality because they have misapprehensions and expectations of an objective morality that are well beyond the realm of reality?

That, for example, if there were an objective morality there would be a "correct" answer to every moral question, or no room for disagreement between two people on the status of x as a moral issue, or that the moral answer to a moral question would be absolute and without any possible mitigation.  That all foggy moral issues would be resolved in some simple moral arithmetic.

An objective morality doesn;t do -any- of that...it;s utility mostly comes down to having a means to seperate, in our own moral frameworks..what is somehow objectively immoral from what is subjectively immoral. By and large, we've begun to think that punishing people for the subjectively immoral is not as well grounded as punishing them for the objectively immoral. Miscegeny was subjectively immoral, we no longer consider it a crime because we no longer feel that it is objectively immoral. I say we, but that "we" obviously excludes Yahweh and other assorted racists.

(November 7, 2017 at 2:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Atlas: yes, I have Muslim friends. I am well aware that Muslims and many Christian denominations believe I will go to Hell for being Catholic.

But those who are your friends won't chuckle about it or fail to respect your right to choose for your self.

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(November 7, 2017 at 2:41 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 2:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: @LP
Doesn't seem mysterious from where I sit, just stupid.  Course, I don't think it has anything to do with a god.  It's his followers hangups we're dealing with on this one.

By this time that god guy, should've zapped me and you, Min first. Personal hangups is a thing. Claiming objectivity with a very subjective idea of a god, as it was demonstrated by the theists around here.

While they shoot themselves in the foot, perhaps studies made, show the very problem of child rape. I have a shrink sister. Handy. We get to be bombarded with her knowledge.

If I get zapped I won't be looking up to find the god that did it, I'll definitely be scanning the area for his overly helpful followers.

(November 7, 2017 at 2:44 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 2:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Atlas: yes, I have Muslim friends. I am well aware that Muslims and many Christian denominations believe I will go to Hell for being Catholic.

But your those who are your friends won't chuckle about it or fail to respect your right to choose for your self.

Yeah, no one's ever been mean to me about it. Its just what they believe, and I'm ok with that.