(November 14, 2017 at 8:27 pm)Astreja Wrote: Yes, I disagree, on two counts.  First of all, I believe that your god is a fictional being incapable of sending anyone anywhere.

I believe that about Zeus. That's why I don't waste my time on discussions of Zeus.

Quote:Secondly, I believe that the bad reputation of the Canaanite people -- The Phoenicians, in the northeast Mediterranean -- was largely fabricated to provide the pretext for an invasion.

Your opinion is noted, but the fact is that several sources - not just the Bible - said that child sacrifice was going on, and cemeteries with burnt remains of infants have been found. You can argue that the charges were fabricated and the remains were just cremations of infants who died naturally, but it seems pretty coincidental and conspiratorial.

Quote:See above.  The only "law" in effect seemed to be "Don't enslave people from your own tribe.  Everyone else is fair game."

In Exodus, the law prohibits kidnapping people and putting them into slavery, and it doesn't specify that it only applies to fellow Israelites.

Quote:Yes, I disagree.  I think the so-called "judgment" was just an excuse the priests gave the people to explain their defeat and capture.  They were overrun by superior forces and their god didn't bail them out; therefore, reasoned the priests, their god must be angry with them.

Just excuses for the inexcusable.

OK, you agree that the Bible says it was judgment. Going back and forth between discussing the Bible's contents when you find that convenient, and saying you don't believe in god anyway when the text is inconvenient, is intellectually dishonest. Go one way or the other.

(November 14, 2017 at 5:09 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(November 14, 2017 at 4:17 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: ORLY? Slavery is moral then according to your belief. 

How about beating those slaves, then?

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Nope. I am asking you directly if you accept that slavery is moral as is claimed in the bible, and you are attempting to divert. Don't do that. It is obvious that you do.

Nope. I think humans should not enslave other people against their will. That is immoral.

You agree that the bible is utterly wrong on this point. Good.

How about human sacrifice? Moral or immoral?

Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

Had to have been for the shits and giggles.  Amuse thy god!!!

(November 15, 2017 at 9:08 am)alpha male Wrote: Your opinion is noted, but the fact is that several sources - not just the Bible - said that child sacrifice was going on, and cemeteries with burnt remains of infants have been found. You can argue that the charges were fabricated and the remains were just cremations of infants who died naturally, but it seems pretty coincidental and conspiratorial.

Link to sources, please, so that I can examine them myself?

Quote:OK, you agree that the Bible says it was judgment. Going back and forth between discussing the Bible's contents when you find that convenient, and saying you don't believe in god anyway when the text is inconvenient, is intellectually dishonest. Go one way or the other.

I don't care what the Bible says it was.  I believe that it was not an actual judgment by a god, just a mythologized excuse for a military failure.  I'm looking for the probable real-world conditions that inspired the nonsense in the Bible, and am under no obligation to take any of it seriously when more plausible explanations are so near at hand. Until empirically demonstrated, it's all mythology and mythologized history.

And yet, when the Bible says something which you think makes it look bad, you accept that without question.

Back then, slavery wasn't looked down on. Everyone did it, and having slaves was a sign of wealth.

So, why don't you argue that Israel might not have had slaves, and just wrote such things to appear better off than they actually were?

(November 15, 2017 at 12:20 pm)alpha male Wrote: And yet, when the Bible says something which you think makes it look bad, you accept that without question.

Because it is mandated in the bible.

(November 15, 2017 at 12:20 pm)alpha male Wrote: Back then, slavery wasn't looked down on. Everyone did it, and having slaves was a sign of wealth.

"They did it too" is an excuse better suited to the schoolyard. Also, to support that you would have to accept that morality changes over time, which presents theists with a whole hatload of other questions.

(November 15, 2017 at 12:20 pm)alpha male Wrote: So, why don't you argue that Israel might not have had slaves, and just wrote such things to appear better off than they actually were?

Because that does NOT appear in the bible so what would be the point in chasing such a person of straw?

(November 15, 2017 at 12:18 pm)Astreja Wrote: Link to sources, please, so that I can examine them myself?

Here's one:
http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-anci...r-children

(November 15, 2017 at 11:43 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(November 14, 2017 at 5:09 pm)SteveII Wrote: Nope. I think humans should not enslave other people against their will. That is immoral.

You agree that the bible is utterly wrong on this point. Good.

How about human sacrifice? Moral or immoral?

I didn't say the Bible was wrong. The only way you get to that is if the Bible says enslaving others against their will is immoral. It does not. Therefore your inference is wrong. 

Human sacrifice is immoral.

(November 15, 2017 at 1:43 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 15, 2017 at 12:18 pm)Astreja Wrote: Link to sources, please, so that I can examine them myself?

Here's one:
http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-anci...r-children

Uh -- That was a Carthaginian colony in North Africa, not in the Canaanite lands to the north of Israel.  Got anything else?

You mentioned the Phoenicians, and this was a Phoenician colony. Makes sense that they got their customs form Phoenicia.

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https://www.ancient.eu/Tophet/

Quote:The tophet (also topheth) was a sacred precinct usually located outside cities where sacrifices and burials were made, especially of young children, in rituals of the Phoenician and then Carthaginian religion. The tophet is the most evident cultural export from Phoenician cities to their colonies throughout the Mediterranean and they have been a valuable source of information on burial practices and even Mediterranean trade via the habit of using imported pottery as funerary urns to store the ashes of the deceased.

One of the rituals of the Phoenician religion was to sacrifice humans, especially children, according to ancient sources. The victims were killed by fire, although it is not clear precisely how. According to the ancient historians Clitarch and Diodorus, a hearth was set before a bronze statue of the god Baal (or El) who had outstretched arms on which the victim was placed before falling into the fire. They also mention the victims wearing a smiling mask to hide their tears from the god to whom they were being offered. The victim’s ashes were then placed in an urn and buried in tombs placed within a dedicated sacred open space surrounded by walls, the tophet...