(November 15, 2017 at 8:43 am)alpha male Wrote:

(November 14, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Mathilda Wrote: I am not saying that religious indoctrination explicitly states that the consequences of your actions are irrelevant, but it achieves this by trivialising the importance of your real-world life with the idea of an eternity of happiness and agony. And it is taught that this judgment is only carried out by your god.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Bible teaches that we get - or miss out on - eternal rewards based on our actions in this life.

The Bible doesn't 'teach' anything. And to believe that such rewards exist after death based on a book written by goatherders over 2000 years ago just because you can't cope with the idea that there isn't a super caretaker to take care of your fate, is indeed utterly childish.

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(November 15, 2017 at 9:47 am)alpha male Wrote:

(November 15, 2017 at 9:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: That is not a choice when it is under threat. Hell is a threat, which is not a choice of mutual consent. 

I'm talking about the saved, for whom hell is no longer a threat.

You wish it was real. You're desperate for it to be real. It's not fucking real because that's retarded.

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(November 15, 2017 at 12:17 pm)alpha male Wrote: Point is that, even if one believes in OSAS, there are still eternal rewards to motivate good behavior in this life.

You wish. There aren't any eternal rewards that's utterly absurd.

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(November 15, 2017 at 4:15 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(November 15, 2017 at 2:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Goodness is God, the fact you deny it, just shows you wish to use the name of goodness, and use his light, to suit your ego.

Dunno who has a bigger ego, the unbeliever or the one that pretends to know what the creator of all things is.

Are you sure you don't know who has the bigger ego?

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(November 15, 2017 at 10:05 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(November 15, 2017 at 12:17 pm)alpha male Wrote: You don't understand the rules.

Salvation - yes, can be taken on the death bed. 

Rewards - nope, too late on the death bed. Person can still be saved as "one escaping through the flames," as Paul puts it. See 1 Cor 3.

Point is that, even if one believes in OSAS, there are still eternal rewards to motivate good behavior in this life.

So you're all good with genocide. What a horrible position.

Well it's no surprise that the New Testament is pro-Hitler. Adolf Hitler was, after all, a Christian.

It's not fair debating a tag-team of theists because each one sincerely believes a different fairy tale. So they can choose a belief system to best answer a question. Whereas atheists are constrained to argue about what happens in reality.

So CL challenges me on saying that christianity teaches that only their god can judge and says that what this actually means is all their god can do is decide whether your soul (i.e. everything about you that makes you you) goes to heaven or hell. Then Alpha male challenges my assertion that being judged by their god on whether you end up in Heaven or Hell trivialises real-world decisions by saying that those decisions are also judged by their god to see what kind of perks we get in the afterlife.

This is the difficulty of arguing with a bunch of people who are just making up shit. Because if they weren't, they'd be consistent right? And that is actually Alpha Male's argument as well. He dismisses all scientific hypotheses, no matter how similar if they do not 100% agree and uses that opportunity to insert his own god-magic explanation. Yet being part of a tag-team of theists they can collectively switch to whichever interpretation of that best answers the question. So using Alpha Male's standards of debate I should be able to dismiss all theist arguments because none of them agree,

I am beginning to think that although religious indoctrination does seek to infantilise, sincere theist belief isn't so much childish as more akin to a mental illness. it's like trying to argue with a paranoid schizophrenic that everyone isn't out to kill them. Whatever you say, their brain will use it for confirmation bias.

I think I will explore these themes by starting new threads.

Yeah people who believe genuinely are like the mentally ill because they are deluded. It's socially acceptable psychosis that is functional in society because it's so common.

However... psychosis is also often infantile and childish because psychological regression is common amongst the mentally ill.

(November 16, 2017 at 7:30 am)Mathilda Wrote: It's not fair debating a tag-team of theists because each one sincerely believes a different fairy tale. So they can choose a belief system to best answer a question. Whereas atheists are constrained to argue about what happens in reality.

So CL challenges me on saying that christianity teaches that only their god can judge and says that what this actually means is all their god can do is decide whether your soul (i.e. everything about you that makes you you) goes to heaven or hell. Then Alpha male challenges my assertion that being judged by their god on whether you end up in Heaven or Hell trivialises real-world decisions by saying that those decisions are also judged by their god to see what kind of perks we get in the afterlife.

This is the difficulty of arguing with a bunch of people who are just making up shit. Because if they weren't, they'd be consistent right? And that is actually Alpha Male's argument as well. He dismisses all scientific hypotheses, no matter how similar if they do not 100% agree and uses that opportunity to insert his own god-magic explanation. Yet being part of a tag-team of theists they can collectively switch to whichever interpretation of that best answers the question. So using Alpha Male's standards of debate I should be able to dismiss all theist arguments because none of them agree,

I am beginning to think that although religious indoctrination does seek to infantilise, sincere theist belief isn't so much childish as more akin to a mental illness. it's like trying to argue with a paranoid schizophrenic that everyone isn't out to kill them. Whatever you say, their brain will use it for confirmation bias.

I think I will explore these themes by starting new threads.

Well that's kind of the point then, isn't it? Theists are made up of billions of people world wide. Lumping us all together and spewing ridiculous bullshit like telling us all that we "weren't raise properly", that we think "consequences are irrelevant", That we "don't take responsibility for our actions", isn't the smartest thing to do. (Also, way to misrepresent what I said)

It's always nice being diagnosed as a mentally ill paranoid schizophrenic by some stranger on the internet though. Get over yourself.

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(November 16, 2017 at 7:46 am)Hammy Wrote: Yeah people who believe genuinely are like the mentally ill because they are deluded. It's socially acceptable psychosis that is functional in society because it's so common.

However... psychosis is also often infantile and childish because psychological regression is common amongst the mentally ill.

Honestly though, I didn't want to go there because I like you and I don't think mental illness is something to be used against someone...

...But being called mentally ill by you is kind of rich, just saying.

(November 16, 2017 at 3:24 am)Hammy Wrote: The Bible doesn't 'teach' anything. And to believe that such rewards exist after death based on a book written by goatherders over 2000 years ago just because you can't cope with the idea that there isn't a super caretaker to take care of your fate, is indeed utterly childish.

Aren't you the guy who lives on video games and frequently feels as if he's an observer of his own life?

(November 15, 2017 at 1:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You should do good out of gratitude to the Creator, nothing else is really that much "good".

MK ugggggggggggg.

We get that you like the idea of good being handed down to you, but so what. We say the same to Catholic Lady and RR too.

Look, we are not going to have you arrested anymore than Catholic Lady, but it is still your own naked assertion, just like we'd say to her.

Atheists don't do good things to glorify invisible friends. We don't do good out of fear of threat or promise of reward. We see doing the right thing as something that you should do, even when nobody is watching.

And again, the idea of a "Creator" god was around long before Islam, Christianity and Jewish religions. 

It's not going to kill you to consider that there is no God. It won't turn you into a serial killer, it will just mean you accepted this is it. 

I do invite you and Catholic Lady to joint the Dark Side, worship Darth Vader, we have cookies and beer. 

AND we we wont rat you out if you illegally rip the tag off your mattress and resell it.

Now, can I offer you a great recipe for barbecue kittens?

(November 16, 2017 at 7:30 am)Mathilda Wrote: It's not fair debating a tag-team of theists because each one sincerely believes a different fairy tale. So they can choose a belief system to best answer a question. Whereas atheists are constrained to argue about what happens in reality.

So argue about what happens in reality. You haven't done that at all. You've offered armchair psychologist speculation. If your speculation is true, shouldn't there be deep and widespread real world repercussions for people so severely handicapped emotionally and intellectually?

There are..and for everyone around them as well....... It's not as if history and current events don't make this plainly clear. Bigotry and bombings are often faith based initiatives. Religious self loathing, the mutilation of infants. Dangerous impulses towards willful ignorance and oppression. Domestic abuse, the sexual assault of minors....... I could go on, but I shouldn't have to.

(November 16, 2017 at 9:18 am)alpha male Wrote:

(November 16, 2017 at 7:30 am)Mathilda Wrote: It's not fair debating a tag-team of theists because each one sincerely believes a different fairy tale. So they can choose a belief system to best answer a question. Whereas atheists are constrained to argue about what happens in reality.

So argue about what happens in reality. You haven't done that at all. You've offered armchair psychologist speculation. If your speculation is true, shouldn't there be deep and widespread real world repercussions for people so severely handicapped emotionally and intellectually?

She posted an article once which claimed that psychologists were saying people of faith are mentally ill. Turns out the article was completely satire, as someone soon pointed out.

So much for being a skeptic. How embarrassing.

(November 16, 2017 at 7:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 16, 2017 at 7:30 am)Mathilda Wrote: It's not fair debating a tag-team of theists because each one sincerely believes a different fairy tale. So they can choose a belief system to best answer a question. Whereas atheists are constrained to argue about what happens in reality.

So CL challenges me on saying that christianity teaches that only their god can judge and says that what this actually means is all their god can do is decide whether your soul (i.e. everything about you that makes you you) goes to heaven or hell. Then Alpha male challenges my assertion that being judged by their god on whether you end up in Heaven or Hell trivialises real-world decisions by saying that those decisions are also judged by their god to see what kind of perks we get in the afterlife.

This is the difficulty of arguing with a bunch of people who are just making up shit. Because if they weren't, they'd be consistent right? And that is actually Alpha Male's argument as well. He dismisses all scientific hypotheses, no matter how similar if they do not 100% agree and uses that opportunity to insert his own god-magic explanation. Yet being part of a tag-team of theists they can collectively switch to whichever interpretation of that best answers the question. So using Alpha Male's standards of debate I should be able to dismiss all theist arguments because none of them agree,

I am beginning to think that although religious indoctrination does seek to infantilise, sincere theist belief isn't so much childish as more akin to a mental illness. it's like trying to argue with a paranoid schizophrenic that everyone isn't out to kill them. Whatever you say, their brain will use it for confirmation bias.

I think I will explore these themes by starting new threads.

Well that's kind of the point then, isn't it? Theists are made up of billions of people world wide. Lumping us all together and spewing ridiculous bullshit like telling us all that we "weren't raise properly", that we think "consequences are irrelevant", That we "don't take responsibility for our actions", isn't the smartest thing to do. (Also, way to misrepresent what I said)

It's always nice being diagnosed as a mentally ill paranoid schizophrenic by some stranger on the internet though. Get over yourself.

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(November 16, 2017 at 7:46 am)Hammy Wrote: Yeah people who believe genuinely are like the mentally ill because they are deluded. It's socially acceptable psychosis that is functional in society because it's so common.

However... psychosis is also often infantile and childish because psychological regression is common amongst the mentally ill.

Honestly though, I didn't want to go there because I like you and I don't think mental illness is something to be used against someone...

...But being called mentally ill by you is kind of rich, just saying.

CL, I am a liberal, I am FOR human rights. But that does not mean every claim a theist might make is true. 

YES I do lump ALL RELIGIONS, AS IDEAS, in as the same made up stuff humans pass on to their youth generation after generation. 

Buddhists will sell Buddhism to their kids. Hindus and Sikhs sell their religions to their kids. Jews and Muslims also. 



Nobody is singling you out CL.

If person A came up to you and said, "The New England Patriots beat the Houston Astros in Olympic Ping Pong, and prayed to Scooby Doo for the win".

Do not tell me you wouldn't be thinking, "OOOOOOOOOKaaaaaaaay"

Now that person may be non violent and very peaceful and kind, but that does not make thee above claim true.

If you are going to make claims based on antiquity, and the supernatural, if you expect us to not object, that is not going to happen here with us. 

I am sure you have objections to claims of Vishnu and Genish as well as Allah. I am sure you don't hate those who do claim those things, but you don't find those claims credible otherwise why not hold those claims yourself?

AND AGAIN, I am former Catholic myself, so I DO get to speak on this. 

NO, I do not find claims of virgin births credible. BUDDHA mythology also had him avoiding the birth canal being born out of the SIDE of his mother Queen Maya. I do not find claims of resurrection credible. I know what DNA is, in that it takes TWO sets, thus undermining virgin birth mythology. I know what rigor mortis is thus undermining resurrection mythology.


WE DON'T HATE YOU, we really don't, but yes, I think it IS delusional to buy into old mythology, just like it would be delusional to still buy claims of Apollo.

I wish there was a polite way to tell Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists that "That was then, this is now". I DO think MOST humans ARE GOOD, I just don't agree there is any magic to life. 

THAT is what we mean by "deluded". 

If you had a friend who walked out of restaurant bathroom with toilet paper dragging off their shoe, you'd want to tell them wouldn't you? This is not about YOU personally, this is about BAD LOGIC.