Did god not know until the moment he decided to create the world how humans would turn out? Because, if he didn't; if there was ever a "time" when God thought things would go a certain a way and they turned out differently than he originally intended, then he is not omniscient. Omnipotence goes out the window as well. If God had an ideal; a vision for humanity, but failed to execute his creation properly, then...he screwed up.

The existence of free will in the narrative makes no meaningful difference. You can't on the one hand say God knew we would fuck it all up because 'omniscience', but then turn around and say, 'we fell from God's grace because free will'.

And, if free will was always part of the plan, then God essentially rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when it backfired on him. God is in every way like Victor Frankenstein. We never asked to be created. But the real kicker is that instead of taking responsibility of the fact that he created a species of unintelligible, immoral miscreants, he decided to trick us into thinking that it's all our fault we can never be good enough. He sets up this contrived and thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knows full well Adam and Eve would not pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity. God is a victim blamer.

(November 17, 2017 at 11:19 am)SteveII Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 10:05 am)Khemikal Wrote: What is there to ask about, and what kind of responses do you give when asked questions?  You feel that you've done something so terrible that the only way out is the death of another. 

Simple, straightforward......still horrible, nothing left to wonder. Is there some detail or minutiae that will alter that summary?

Your point is not simple, it's simplistic (and I suspect intentionally so).

It has nothing to do with what I feel. Sin creates a barrier (because of God's essential holiness) and an obligation to satisfy (because of God's essential justice). The choice is to leave the barrier in place and pay for the consequences defined by God's justice OR accept that he has provided a method to remove each person's individual barrier and satisfy the justice. To be clear, absent outside help, there is nothing we are capable of doing that can remove the barrier and the only satisfaction of divine justice is our death. The only way both the barrier could removed and the satisfaction of justice could be accomplished is if God himself removed the barrier and satisfied the justice by paying for our sins prior to our death and imparting holiness on us in the process.

Seems like I got it exactly right.  You're in a jam, only way out is for the other guy to die. Would you have nailed christ to the cross yourself?

(November 17, 2017 at 11:33 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: And, if free will was always part of the plan, then God essentially rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when it backfired on him. God is in every way like Victor Frankenstein. We never asked to be created. But the real kicker is that instead of taking responsibility of the fact that he created a species of unintelligible, immoral miscreants, he decided to trick us into thinking that it's all our fault we can never be good enough. He sets up this contrived and thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knows full well Adam and Eve would not pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.  God is a victim blamer.

He did take responsibility - on the cross.

If some people reject that, that's their problem.

(November 17, 2017 at 11:37 am)alpha male Wrote: He did take responsibility - on the cross.

If some people reject that, that's their problem.

Get's him off the hook then, doesn't it...but not you.

(November 17, 2017 at 10:00 am)SteveII Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 8:21 am)Harry Nevis Wrote: So we're born, through no fault of our own, with the burden of a debt we can't possibly repay.  But the person that saddled us with this debt has a way out.  Buying the cure from the poisoner.

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LOL.  So it's US that has a warped sense of atonement.  Is there a dictionary that defines atonement as having someone else die to pay for a debt you never incurred?

That "author of goodness" crap almost had me snorting my coffee.

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Something changed a perfect being in a lees than positive way? He created the sin, and could choose any other way to wipe it out.  Can't you see what a infantile story this is?

Now notice how you could have phrased all those comments as questions or in a discussion format. Instead all your comments are peanut-gallery, comprehension-deficient, condescending nonsense that somehow meets a need in your head. Thanks for the example of why I choose to unclutter my feed with your contributions.

The ideas you champion deserve nothing more.

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(November 17, 2017 at 10:56 am)alpha male Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 9:54 am)Astreja Wrote: Well, the chances of me doing that are zero.

Literally.  I intend to go to my grave without ever falling into that ridiculous mindset.

I believe you. And to you, yes, I can see that it appears to be a bad system. From my POV you're letting your pride get in the way. And before you say that you don't believe, many atheists say that even with proof of god's existence they wouldn't change their mind, so it's still a point within discussion.

And the fact that there is nothing that would change your mind is not from pride/ego? I know of no atheists that would ignore the existence of a god, once proven to them, as you don't have to believe if it's proven. They may not deem it worthy of worship...

(November 17, 2017 at 10:56 am)alpha male Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 9:54 am)Astreja Wrote: Well, the chances of me doing that are zero.

Literally.  I intend to go to my grave without ever falling into that ridiculous mindset.

I believe you. And to you, yes, I can see that it appears to be a bad system. From my POV you're letting your pride get in the way. And before you say that you don't believe, many atheists say that even with proof of god's existence they wouldn't change their mind, so it's still a point within discussion.

You say "pride" like it's a bad thing.  Yes, I do have pride, and it's very useful.  I'm on time for work, I haven't missed a Wednesday night band practice in nearly 7 years, my bills get paid on time, and I put real morality before the "I've got mine, sucks that you're in hell" immorality of Christianity.

(November 17, 2017 at 12:04 pm)Astreja Wrote: You say "pride" like it's a bad thing.  Yes, I do have pride, and it's very useful.  I'm on time for work, I haven't missed a Wednesday night band practice in nearly 7 years, my bills get paid on time, and I put real morality before the "I've got mine, sucks that you're in hell" immorality of Christianity.

Pride, like many things, is good in measure, but can be destructive in excess. For example, many people think that Trump has excessive pride and are concerned it could result in unnecessary conflict.

How does any of that make vicarious redemption any less immoral than it is..or are we just looking to change the subject? The trump bump is another example of a messiah figure who made terrible promises to anyone who would show him fealty, and hoping for the ill gotten gains mentioned in those promises, certain there was no other way...the faithful seek to dick the other guy....yet again.

Hows that been workin out? Does it ever work?

(November 17, 2017 at 11:37 am)alpha male Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 11:33 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: And, if free will was always part of the plan, then God essentially rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when it backfired on him. God is in every way like Victor Frankenstein. We never asked to be created. But the real kicker is that instead of taking responsibility of the fact that he created a species of unintelligible, immoral miscreants, he decided to trick us into thinking that it's all our fault we can never be good enough. He sets up this contrived and thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knows full well Adam and Eve would not pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.  God is a victim blamer.

He did take responsibility - on the cross.

If some people reject that, that's their problem.

No, taking responsibility would involve not sending people to hell as punishment for something they didn't have control over - being created as is.

(November 17, 2017 at 1:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: No, taking responsibility would involve not sending people to hell as punishment for something they didn't have control over - being created as is.

First, I don't know about you, but I have a conscience, and I knowingly violate it at times. So, I disagree regarding control.

Second, people don't have to go to hell. Again, if people reject salvation, that's their choice.