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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 1:32 pm
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2017 at 1:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You don't have to give a man holding a gun to your head your wallet, either. Your bar doesn't have to burn down if you just pay the racketeer. Is any of this intended to make the situation sound better, or worse?
I'm just not sure how, in response to a moral objection to the scheme, insisting that god will hurt you if you don't accept..is anything other than piling violence atop indecency?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 1:48 pm
(November 17, 2017 at 1:31 pm)alpha male Wrote: (November 17, 2017 at 1:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: No, taking responsibility would involve not sending people to hell as punishment for something they didn't have control over - being created as is.
First, I don't know about you, but I have a conscience, and I knowingly violate it at times. So, I disagree regarding control.
Second, people don't have to go to hell. Again, if people reject salvation, that's their choice.
If the being who wields all the power and makes all the decisions regarding existence and creation knows what you're going to do before you do it, and goes ahead with creating you as is anyway, then no; you have no control in any meaningful sense of the word. Your fate was decided for you before you were even a sparkle in your mother's eye. To be all/powerful, and all-knowing is to have total control.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 1:53 pm
(November 17, 2017 at 1:48 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If the being who wields all the power and makes all the decisions regarding existence and creation knows what you're going to do before you do it, and goes ahead with creating you as is anyway, then no; you have no control in any meaningful sense of the word. Your fate was decided for you before you were even a sparkle in your mother's eye. To be all/powerful, and all-knowing is to have total control.
By that interpretation we don't exist as autonomous beings with rights.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 2:06 pm
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2017 at 2:07 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(November 17, 2017 at 1:53 pm)alpha male Wrote: (November 17, 2017 at 1:48 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If the being who wields all the power and makes all the decisions regarding existence and creation knows what you're going to do before you do it, and goes ahead with creating you as is anyway, then no; you have no control in any meaningful sense of the word. Your fate was decided for you before you were even a sparkle in your mother's eye. To be all/powerful, and all-knowing is to have total control.
By that interpretation we don't exist as autonomous beings with rights.
Yes, that's my point. By way of your god we aren't autonomous, which is one reason (of many) why I don't subscribe to any of the religious narratives. I mean, did I misrepresent your god in some way? Is my description not accurate?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 2:08 pm
(November 17, 2017 at 2:06 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (November 17, 2017 at 1:53 pm)alpha male Wrote: By that interpretation we don't exist as autonomous beings with rights.
I agree. By way of your god we aren't autonomous, which is one reason (of many) why I don't subscribe to any of the religious narratives. I mean, did I misrepresent your god in some way? Is my description not accurate?
Point is that if our every thought was in effect prewritten by god, we don't exist in any meaningful sense. We're just characters in a complex novel.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 2:24 pm
(November 17, 2017 at 12:27 pm)alpha male Wrote: Pride, like many things, is good in measure, but can be destructive in excess. For example, many people think that Trump has excessive pride and are concerned it could result in unnecessary conflict.
I'm *so* tempted to interpret this as a variation on Godwin's law. (Suffice to say that I do not resemble Trump in any meaningful way and expect this state to continue for the foreseeable future.)
(November 17, 2017 at 2:08 pm)alpha male Wrote: (November 17, 2017 at 2:06 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I agree. By way of your god we aren't autonomous, which is one reason (of many) why I don't subscribe to any of the religious narratives. I mean, did I misrepresent your god in some way? Is my description not accurate?
Point is that if our every thought was in effect prewritten by god, we don't exist in any meaningful sense. We're just characters in a complex novel.
Thoughts are irrelevant here. Regardless of what we think or believe, your god is constraining our behaviour and only providing two possible outcomes (heaven for professing belief, hell for rejecting it). I can think of several other possible outcomes -- simple annihilation of non-compliant beings, or the freedom to craft one's own afterlife, are just two that would be vastly superior to sending anyone to hell.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 2:27 pm
(November 17, 2017 at 2:24 pm)Astreja Wrote: Thoughts are irrelevant here.
No, they're not. I think, therefore I am. If god determined our every thought, then we don't exist in any meaningful way.
Quote:Regardless of what we think or believe, your god is constraining our behaviour
How so?
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 2:33 pm
(November 17, 2017 at 2:08 pm)alpha male Wrote: (November 17, 2017 at 2:06 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I agree. By way of your god we aren't autonomous, which is one reason (of many) why I don't subscribe to any of the religious narratives. I mean, did I misrepresent your god in some way? Is my description not accurate?
Point is that if our every thought was in effect prewritten by god, we don't exist in any meaningful sense. We're just characters in a complex novel.
One of the many reason we don't buy into it.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 3:02 pm
(November 17, 2017 at 2:08 pm)alpha male Wrote: (November 17, 2017 at 2:06 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I agree. By way of your god we aren't autonomous, which is one reason (of many) why I don't subscribe to any of the religious narratives. I mean, did I misrepresent your god in some way? Is my description not accurate?
Point is that if our every thought was in effect prewritten by god, we don't exist in any meaningful sense. We're just characters in a complex novel.
Correct. So, why does your god try to convince you otherwise?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 3:05 pm
(November 17, 2017 at 3:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Correct.
Then why do you complain about hell, or any other supposed injustice of God?
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