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(LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
#1
(LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
            Lawrence Krauss, when postulating various theories concerning what might have happened before the big bang will readily admit that cosmologists have no certain answer on the matter. Richard Dawkins, though boasting a comprehensive knowledge of evolutionary science, will admit that he doesn’t know how life formed from non-life. It is to its credit that science is so humble concerning what it doesn’t know. If only theists showed a modicum of this true modesty!
 
            But they don’t. Theists KNOW how the universe began. They KNOW how life formed from non-life. They KNOW what is truly moral or immoral. But the truth is, they don’t know shit. They just think they know. That old Socratic adage “All I know is that I know nothing” is alive and well in the sciences; it keeps theorists’ minds open to new possibilities, more willing to change their previous models when new evidence comes to light. Theists have Genesis, ever unchanging, indifferent to new information, perpetually wrong. But even those theists who eschew a literal interpretation of Genesis, will confidently tout theism as a reliable source for moral wisdom.
 
            Why do atheists adopt a defensive posture concerning ethics? Instead of brashly asserting our moral discoveries, like we do with proven scientific theories, we find ourselves defending the claim that morality can exist without God or attacking moral aberrations in the Old Testament. What if we admitted that (while there are dark spots in our ethical theories) they are still a hell of a lot better than anything theism has to offer? I think our reservations have to do with our relative uncertainty in what we can positively say concerning ethics.
 
            Ethics falls into the domain of philosophy, an intellectual discipline which is commonly chided for its lack of discernable progress. Philosophers have struggled for centuries to find a mere foundation for ethics. And no foundational theory in ethics is without its problems. If one has not even laid a definite foundation for a theory, it’s hard to claim progress. Take hedonism, probably the most attractive value theory of the bunch: hedonists assert that happiness and pleasure are the things which contribute to a good life. To the hedonist, an action is right if it creates happiness or reduces pain and suffering; an action is wrong if it diminishes happiness or increases pain and suffering. But there is a problem with this theory. A doctor may cause you pain and suffering by informing you that you have inoperable cancer, but “breaking the bad news” is still the right thing to do. Autonomy is dear to our hearts, but a hedonist says that it is better to do actions that increase happiness, even if it undermines the autonomy of the action’s benefactor. The point is, there is plenty of disagreement in ethics and nothing remotely resembling a consensus. We have yet to fashion anything like the Periodic Table in ethics. Thus, ethical theory is seen as something more akin to alchemy than chemistry.
 
            But philosophical ethics possesses many virtues that a religion-based ethics lacks: honesty, integrity, reasonableness, and (most importantly) humility. You see, while ethicists from different camps squabble over the importance of happiness or autonomy, religion callously asserts that making graven images is one of the ten most immoral things a person can do—all while neglecting to condemn slavery, or the rape of slaves, or genocide... the list goes on. But in all of this, theists speak with pride about how their morals are laid out in black and white, boasting that they are certain what the most ethical action is in any given situation. Perhaps there is something more valuable than certitude in these situations.
I’ll allow the philosopher Russ Shafer-Landau to drive my point home:
 
            “Consider the case of Nuran Halitogullari, a 14-year-old girl from Istanbul who was abducted on her way home from the supermarket. She was raped over the course of six days and then rescued by police. After being reunited with her family, her father decided that she had dishonored their family by having been raped. He then exercised what he regarded as his rightful authority. As he told a newspaper reporter, ‘I decided to kill her because our honor was dirtied. I didn’t listen to her pleas; I wrapped the wire around her neck and pulled at it until she died.’”
 
            As with Lawrence Krauss concerning the events before the big bang, perhaps the truly knowledgeable are the ones who will admit gaps in their knowledge. And (I think that this is especially true concerning ethics) those who claim to have absolute knowledge are the ones who really don’t know shit.
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#2
RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
Meh, I admit that I could be wrong. Do I think I am? No, obviously. If I did, I'd hold a different opinion that I didn't think was the wrong one.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#3
RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
Quote:After being reunited with her family, her father decided that she had dishonored their family by having been raped.

Everything that's wrong with religion in one short sentence.
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#4
RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
(November 20, 2017 at 9:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Meh, I admit that I could be wrong. Do I think I am? No, obviously. If I did, I'd hold a different opinion that I didn't think was the wrong one.


You are this close to winning my Agnostic Christian merit badge!  How are your campfire starting skills?

That guy was so certain he was willing to bet his daughter's life on it. Probably beat Abraham's time too.
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#5
RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
(November 20, 2017 at 9:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Meh, I admit that I could be wrong. Do I think I am? No, obviously. If I did, I'd hold a different opinion that I didn't think was the wrong one.

I appreciate your humility.  However, in regards to the op, I'm in great admiration of those individuals who, despite holding a particular position, will ultimately admit to gaps in their knowledge (thus, admitting that they don't know) and who will ultimately part with the comforts of their previous ways of thinking and embrace new ways of thinking and understanding, as new knowledge and facts become available to them.  IMO, this epitomizes open-mindedness, progress, and growth.











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#6
RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
(November 20, 2017 at 9:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Meh, I admit that I could be wrong. Do I think I am? No, obviously. If I did, I'd hold a different opinion that I didn't think was the wrong one.

Do you think the Bible might be wrong about ethics? At least in parts?

(And just because I was raised Catholic: Do you think the Pope can be wrong concerning doctrine?)
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#7
RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
Vulcan, I feel very confident in my Catholic beliefs and all that comes with it.

But at the end of the day, it does require a certain amount of faith and hope. Is it possible that I could be wrong about everything? Yes. Do I think I am? No.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#8
RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
(November 20, 2017 at 9:20 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:             Lawrence Krauss, when postulating various theories concerning what might have happened before the big bang will readily admit that cosmologists have no certain answer on the matter. Richard Dawkins, though boasting a comprehensive knowledge of evolutionary science, will admit that he doesn’t know how life formed from non-life. It is to its credit that science is so humble concerning what it doesn’t know. If only theists showed a modicum of this true modesty!
 
...           
            But philosophical ethics possesses many virtues that a religion-based ethics lacks: honesty, integrity, reasonableness, and (most importantly) humility. You see, while ethicists from different camps squabble over the importance of happiness or autonomy, religion callously asserts that making graven images is one of the ten most immoral things a person can do—all while neglecting to condemn slavery, or the rape of slaves, or genocide... the list goes on. 

You pay lip service to ethicists being humble enough to not claim true knowledge...then you imply that you know that slavery, rape of slaves, genocide, and a list of other items are indeed immoral.
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#9
RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
(November 20, 2017 at 9:20 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Why do atheists adopt a defensive posture concerning ethics? Instead of brashly asserting our moral discoveries, like we do with proven scientific theories, we find ourselves defending the claim that morality can exist without God or attacking moral aberrations in the Old Testament. What if we admitted that (while there are dark spots in our ethical theories) they are still a hell of a lot better than anything theism has to offer? I think our reservations have to do with our relative uncertainty in what we can positively say concerning ethics.
"We" do that all the time.  I habitually remind our christian friends that while I may be many, many terrible things...a scapegoater I am not.
 
Quote:            Ethics falls into the domain of philosophy, an intellectual discipline which is commonly chided for its lack of discernable progress. Philosophers have struggled for centuries to find a mere foundation for ethics. And no foundational theory in ethics is without its problems. If one has not even laid a definite foundation for a theory, it’s hard to claim progress. Take hedonism, probably the most attractive value theory of the bunch: hedonists assert that happiness and pleasure are the things which contribute to a good life. To the hedonist, an action is right if it creates happiness or reduces pain and suffering; an action is wrong if it diminishes happiness or increases pain and suffering. But there is a problem with this theory. A doctor may cause you pain and suffering by informing you that you have inoperable cancer, but “breaking the bad news” is still the right thing to do. Autonomy is dear to our hearts, but a hedonist says that it is better to do actions that increase happiness, even if it undermines the autonomy of the action’s benefactor. The point is, there is plenty of disagreement in ethics and nothing remotely resembling a consensus. We have yet to fashion anything like the Periodic Table in ethics. Thus, ethical theory is seen as something more akin to alchemy than chemistry.
Hedonism has it's issues, but I don't think that's one of them.  Presumably, a diagnosis is the first step in reducing pain and suffering.  Most of hedonism's issues arise in the conflict between your pleasure and another's suffering (or your own).  The hedonists paradox more adequately describes the trouble with hedonism.  Pleasure seeking may not actually be the best way to achieve pleasure.  Hence the modification of hedonism with stoicism, ethical hedonism.  Whereby one seeks to increase pleasure and reduce suffering..but acknowledges that abstaining from at least some pleasure or pleasure seeking (or even seeking and accepting the reverse..suffering) might more adequately achieve the end goal for one's self and for others around them.  The gaping hole, as it were, in hedonism is incomplete and often counterproductive perceptions of how to best seek or achieve pleasure, and what responsibilities we may have to others in that pursuit.  
 
Quote:But philosophical ethics possesses many virtues that a religion-based ethics lacks: honesty, integrity, reasonableness, and (most importantly) humility. You see, while ethicists from different camps squabble over the importance of happiness or autonomy, religion callously asserts that making graven images is one of the ten most immoral things a person can do—all while neglecting to condemn slavery, or the rape of slaves, or genocide... the list goes on. But in all of this, theists speak with pride about how their morals are laid out in black and white, boasting that they are certain what the most ethical action is in any given situation. Perhaps there is something more valuable than certitude in these situations.
Good ole christian moral fortitude.  Here's where an "I don't know" answer is so very relevant.  If a person insists that there is some blemish upon their character or soul or agency (whatever they want to call it) that the usual methods of redemptive action are insufficient...that they "can;t pay the bill" - so to speak-  they may ask, in the absence of vicarious redemption, how are we to be redeemed? 

The answer, ofc..is, "I don't know..maybe you can't be.  Just wtf did you -do- anyway?".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#10
RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
(November 21, 2017 at 10:36 am)alpha male Wrote: You pay lip service to ethicists being humble enough to not claim true knowledge...then you imply that you know that slavery, rape of slaves, genocide, and a list of other items are indeed immoral.

Except that I don't. I approach ethics through REASON which, as I admitted in the OP, has failed to produce an unproblematic theory. Through reasoning, one can try to discern what is right and wrong. Hedonism, for example, forbids rape because it causes a great deal of pain and suffering. Through reason, I have come to accept that rape is wrong in much the same way a cosmologist ascertains that the universe is (probably) around 14 billion years old. New evidence or thinking could present itself which causes either the cosmologist or the philosopher to rethink their positions.

Not so with religious thinking. Religion holds fast to its stubborn precepts and so cannot modify its "theory" in order to reassess its ethics.
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