(December 24, 2017 at 11:50 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 11:06 am)Tizheruk Wrote: True but not relevant . If our criteria is a current conscience state.

Tiz, the ‘consciousness’ argument fails at the scientific level.  Newborns are hardly more conscious than late-term fetuses.  By that logic, you’d have to consider euthanizing a newborn equally morally acceptable as a late term abortion.  

https://www.livescience.com/28848-babies...sness.html

Hardly more conscience is still more conscience. So once again this argument does not work .

(December 24, 2017 at 11:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Ah, ok then

HEY CL your personal loss is understandable as far as your reaction to it. But the issue isn't a miscarriage in this thread. I felt bad for you when you told everyone here. Just like you felt bad when I told everyone I lost my mother. Your empathy is there and I can see your empathy for others too.

The only thing pro choice advocates are saying about abortions, is lets not make things worse, lets reduce the need in other ways. I simply get frustrated with the far right who doesn't seem to want to see that they wont get that perfect utopia they are chasing. 

I hope you can have a baby if you want one, but if all you can do is adopt, that too, you still get to be a mother if that is what would make you happy. It still remains though with abortions, the really are an individual case by case issue, and you'll never ban them 100% without making things more dangerous and underground.

Abortion is not murder. It's a medical procedure, that is CHOSEN by the mother. And a woman should have every right to make her own healthcare decisions. Especially since those decisions will greatly effect her. How many anti-choicers would be willing to give up their rights to make their own healthcare decisions in order for abortion to be banned?

This has nothing to do with my BABY dying. I was pro life long before that because killing innocent humans is wrong, period.

The only reason I brought up my son was because some people here are referring to 20+ week old unborn babies as "parasitic tissues."

(December 24, 2017 at 12:03 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 11:50 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Tiz, the ‘consciousness’ argument fails at the scientific level.  Newborns are hardly more conscious than late-term fetuses.  By that logic, you’d have to consider euthanizing a newborn equally morally acceptable as a late term abortion.  

https://www.livescience.com/28848-babies...sness.html

Hardly more conscience is still more conscience. So once again this argument does not work .

A newborn infant is not conscious.  It can’t even distinguish between itself and its mother.  That is a scientific fact.

(December 24, 2017 at 11:52 am)Jane2d Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 10:09 am)Tizheruk Wrote: 3. This sounds like the tired "would you like to have liked to been aborted " If the price of my birth is the endangerment of women and the loss of their reproductive say . Then my life is not worth it . 
.

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I have had friends over the years with special needs children, but most of them would not have benefited from a pre-natal test for their childs condition, ie not downs.  They love their kids and in general, the kids seem happy.   Each of these parents struggle with the future for these children after they are gone/unable to care for these kids. 

Given a choice, I would not want to live a life with Downs.   There are several chronic medical conditions that I would not choose to struggle with.  Quad-para is one.

If I had a downs pregnancy, I would abort.  I would consider that as in the best interest of the child.

What if they where two years old? Might as well see how bad it is?

But forcing woman to remain pregnant and passing draconian autonomy stealing laws that will kill more innocent people is fine apparently . And the tissue argument still holds .

In fact I propose a deal with the anti-choicers. Let's see how many would take it:

You get to ban abortion BUT:

-Guns are banned
-Churches are taxed
-Death penalty abolished
-We have universal healthcare
-We have comprehensive sex education in all classrooms including private schools and homeschooling
-ALL Birth Control is covered by universal healthcare
-YOU personally don't get to make your own healthcare decisions
-Everyone gets Basic Universal Income
-Women get 6 months paid maternity leave, and men get 6 months paid paternity leave.
-Everyone gets at least 2 weeks paid vacation each year
-Everyone gets at least 1 week paid sick leave each year
-The Foster Care system is FULLY Funded. Whatever they ask for, they get.

I'm sure some would take that deal in a heart beat. But I wonder how many would.

(December 24, 2017 at 12:11 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 12:03 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Hardly more conscience is still more conscience. So once again this argument does not work .

A newborn infant is not conscious.  It can’t even distinguish between itself and its mother.  That is a scientific fact.

But a fetus can tell it's mothers voice according to you ?

Not to mention the fact the article you linked only studied infants at a later age. They themselves say they would do a further studies on infants 2 weeks old . Clearly implying this is not sweeping study at birth.

Not to mention the matter seems hardly as clear cut as your saying
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/baby-la...index.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25721916

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news...abies.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...ility.html

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/b...ath-skills

So your position seems incoherent.

(December 24, 2017 at 12:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This has nothing to do with my BABY dying. I was pro life long before that because killing innocent humans is wrong, period.

The only reason I brought up my son was because some people here are referring to 20+ week old unborn babies as "parasitic tissues."

Based on what? Because an old book of mythology said so? CL you cannot hide behind that with me. The Koran is also used to make claims to justify control over others. 

Now you know I am not evil, and I know you like me, so you cannot use this argument with me, otherwise you'd have to call me an accessory to murder since I support choice. I hope you would never accuse me of being party to a crime. 

Now again, the real test is if your logic is that it is murder, then you cant simply punish the doctor. If two people rob a bank, and a teller dies, or customer both get charged equally in that death. So if you insist on calling abortion murder, then tell everyone here what the punishment should be for  the girl/women. 

Now if you are willing to tell other females what to do with their bodies, then why cant I force you to have one then? If I cant then maybe the only thing anyone has the right to do is leave it up to the doctor and patent.

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(December 24, 2017 at 10:43 am)A Theist Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 10:34 am)Brian37 Wrote: Loves to post garbage like this,

In response to your retarded shit posts.

Yet you have no problem with kids going to school having their brains and guts blown out.