(December 29, 2017 at 5:52 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 5:41 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that this represents most peoples positions who are against abortion.

I do have empathy for women in this situation.  And I do think that we need to help and support them.  

However, I don't think that the reasons given, justify the intentional killing of a person.

CL has chosen to ignore my question. Can you answer what I asked her on previous page or so? What is it you want accomplished?

Other pro-lifers want to answer?

Do you want anything achieved such as banning abortion altogether (or in most cases), or is this just an exercise of philosophy or indignation for you?

Starting next week illegal alien women in Oregeon will be able to get tax payer funded abortions.  

http://www.theblaze.com/podcasts/taxpaye...0-new-laws

(December 29, 2017 at 6:21 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 6:01 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Yes, but just because it was the initial cause, doesn't mean that it is all the rest.  I don't think that what was described, represents most Christians, or that most I know, would equate a baby taking it's first breath, with God breathing life into Adam.

I quoted two other bible verses which support the position that the breath is the beginning of life, as well as the law from Exodus in which prenatal life is not accorded the same status as that of life that has taken a breath.  Just like you ignore evidence contrary to your opinion on abortion, Christians ignore what their own scriptures tell them.  If a Christian claims to live by the word of God, yet then ignores it and comes to a contrary position, what are we to make of it?  Personally I find such people hypocritical and their moral opinions of little value.

I disagree and don't think that is what they where intending to convey... and I'm not ignoring the scriptures, I was ignoring you, because I didn't think your intentions where noble.... there's a difference.  But if you would really like to discuss those verses, make a thread, and we'll discuss just that.

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(December 29, 2017 at 5:52 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 5:41 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that this represents most peoples positions who are against abortion.

I do have empathy for women in this situation.  And I do think that we need to help and support them.  

However, I don't think that the reasons given, justify the intentional killing of a person.

Perhaps it doesn't justify the killing... But the need to help and support the women with their children is not there, not even in the socialist European countries... Maybe except France...

Throughout the ages and to this day, women have felt the need to abort pregnancies. When illegal to do so, they have resorted to clandestine situations with all the risks inherent to such a practice.
Women have chosen the risk of doing something illegal with the possibility of death, over having a child. To these women, making abortion illegal is telling them that their lives are worth less than the life of the unborn.
Is it?
Is an adult human worth less than an unborn that she can have again?

That makes no sense to me at all. Why would you allow or condone an unjustified killing of a human being for any reason? I also do not follow or agree with the sentiment that making it illegal is saying anything about their lives being worth less. It is saying it is wrong to kill the baby, and you will be held accountable if you do so. Do you think this line of reasoning would hold under any other context. I also don't think that putting that type of worth, is correct at all, when talking about killing another person. Would you make the same decision if the child was a toddler, and the parent was threatening to kill either the child or them both?

And if the help and support is not there, then shouldn't we be fighting for that?

(December 29, 2017 at 6:34 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Starting next week illegal alien women in Oregeon will be able to get tax payer funded abortions.  

http://www.theblaze.com/podcasts/taxpaye...0-new-laws

And i'm guessing you would much rather they die in back alleys.

(December 29, 2017 at 7:26 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 5:52 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Perhaps it doesn't justify the killing... But the need to help and support the women with their children is not there, not even in the socialist European countries... Maybe except France...

Throughout the ages and to this day, women have felt the need to abort pregnancies. When illegal to do so, they have resorted to clandestine situations with all the risks inherent to such a practice.
Women have chosen the risk of doing something illegal with the possibility of death, over having a child. To these women, making abortion illegal is telling them that their lives are worth less than the life of the unborn.
Is it?
Is an adult human worth less than an unborn that she can have again?

That makes no sense to me at all. Why would you allow or condone an unjustified killing of a human being for any reason? I also do not follow or agree with the sentiment that making it illegal is saying anything about their lives being worth less. It is saying it is wrong to kill the baby, and you will be held accountable if you do so. Do you think this line of reasoning would hold under any other context. I also don't think that putting that type of worth, is correct at all, when talking about killing another person. Would you make the same decision if the child was a toddler, and the parent was threatening to kill either the child or them both?

And if the help and support is not there, then shouldn't we be fighting for that?

The help and support that is not there, would have been closer, if the politicians in charge were more socialist and less capitalist/liberal, don't you think?
Instead, in the states, for some reason, the Republicans/capitalists/liberals are associated with the religious... The core of Christianity, family and helping each other, is completely ignored by those politicians... but people still follow them... And the same thing happens in Europe.

As for worth, a woman can (usually) easily have another child. A child can't easily become a parent. Ultimately, it's about gene perpetuation. If a policy is to be enforced, it should be to favor the woman's life.
Since (or while) no structures exist to support women with unplanned pregnancies, the abortion is a necessity that is felt by some of those women. And they will, if the practice is illegal, perform them clandestinely.
Legal, or illegal, the baby dies. I think this fact is what many in the anti-abortion side don't realize.
Do we, as a society, also want the mother to die? Or have complications arise that will then tax the health care system?

(December 29, 2017 at 6:34 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Starting next week illegal alien women in Oregeon will be able to get tax payer funded abortions.  

http://www.theblaze.com/podcasts/taxpaye...0-new-laws

You have GOT to be fucking kidding me.

Accept we have law makers who do want blanket bans .Or want to make it so hard to get an abortion it might as well be a blanket ban . Even a partial ban will likely push people to the black market . As for a defense of a partial ban what would it look like . 

If you say it's about life threatening situations. So she only matters if she's dying because of a pregnancy? Not if taking away her bodily autonomy pushes her to getting a dangerous illegal abortion . 

If you say it's about rape then you contradict the notion of protecting the innocent . Because a child born of rape is no less innocent . 

If you speak about alternatives . Good make it happen and make it universal  . Till then isupport the best option.

All I’m saying is I don’t think a person has the legal right to stroll into a clinic at 6 or 7 months pregnant and terminate, simply because she’s changed her mind. I don’t think what I’m suggesting here is anything unreasonable or outrageous. I understand these are not the typical circumstances of the majority of late term abortions, but in case such scenario does arise (perhaps the woman is mentally ill), it is my opinion that that 7 month old fetus is far enough in gestational age to warrant protection as a human person.

So you much prefer her to go to an illegal clinic . Have an abortion anyway . And also potentially get herself killed in the process .Oh and make her bodily autonomy a subject for negotiation.

(December 29, 2017 at 7:26 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 6:21 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: I quoted two other bible verses which support the position that the breath is the beginning of life, as well as the law from Exodus in which prenatal life is not accorded the same status as that of life that has taken a breath.  Just like you ignore evidence contrary to your opinion on abortion, Christians ignore what their own scriptures tell them.  If a Christian claims to live by the word of God, yet then ignores it and comes to a contrary position, what are we to make of it?  Personally I find such people hypocritical and their moral opinions of little value.

I disagree and don't think that is what they where intending to convey... and I'm not ignoring the scriptures, I was ignoring you, because I didn't think your intentions where noble.... there's a difference.  But if you would really like to discuss those verses, make a thread, and we'll discuss just that.

You're so transparent it's fucking ridiculous. You won't answer Vorlon because of his alleged "intentions." You won't answer me because of my alleged intentions. It's obvious to everyone and their grandmother that the reason you don't want to answer has everything to do with you, and nothing to do with the intentions of Vorlon and myself. Answer. Don't answer. I don't care. But stop wasting our time with these pathetic lies.