(January 10, 2018 at 5:54 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(January 10, 2018 at 5:43 pm)c152 Wrote: There's also the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), funded by the good 'ol Templeton Foundation.
Groups of patients for heart surgery were being prayed for in a very large study, the results were that no positive effect from the prayers could be observed. And before anyone comes dragging with the placebo bullshit, the group of people who knew they were receiving prayers actually did worse in the study!

Prayer does no good unless it's backed by belief.

A placebo does no good unless it's backed by belief.

What's the common denominator? So that study is nonsense unless it can determine the amount of faith a subject possesses, which is not something that is quantifiable by science.

There was several american churches doing all the praying so it's safe to say there was a lot of belief involved. Plus, again, it was funded by the bloody Templeton Foundation.

Uhm You seem to be under the impression that this was atheist scientists praying for atheist patients...

(January 10, 2018 at 6:01 pm)c152 Wrote:

(January 10, 2018 at 5:54 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Prayer does no good unless it's backed by belief.

A placebo does no good unless it's backed by belief.

What's the common denominator? So that study is nonsense unless it can determine the amount of faith a subject possesses, which is not something that is quantifiable by science.

There was several american churches doing all the praying so it's safe to say there was a lot of belief involved. Plus, again, it was funded by the bloody Templeton Foundation.

Uhm You seem to be under the impression that this was atheist scientists praying for atheist patients...

A proper atheist only prays to the red guy with all the charm.

(January 10, 2018 at 6:01 pm)c152 Wrote:

(January 10, 2018 at 5:54 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Prayer does no good unless it's backed by belief.

A placebo does no good unless it's backed by belief.

What's the common denominator? So that study is nonsense unless it can determine the amount of faith a subject possesses, which is not something that is quantifiable by science.

There was several american churches doing all the praying so it's safe to say there was a lot of belief involved. Plus, again, it was funded by the bloody Templeton Foundation.

Uhm You seem to be under the impression that this was atheist scientists praying for atheist patients...

*emphasis mine*

No, it's not safe to say that...

Quote:Matthew 17
14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

Even Jesus's own disciples failed due to unbelief.

So again your study is nonsense unless it can determine the amount of faith a subject possesses, which is not something that is quantifiable by science.

(January 10, 2018 at 6:20 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(January 10, 2018 at 6:01 pm)c152 Wrote: There was several american churches doing all the praying so it's safe to say there was a lot of belief involved. Plus, again, it was funded by the bloody Templeton Foundation.

Uhm You seem to be under the impression that this was atheist scientists praying for atheist patients...

*emphasis mine*

No, it's not safe to say that...

Quote:Matthew 17
14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

Even Jesus's own disciples failed due to unbelief.

So again your study is nonsense unless it can determine the amount of faith a subject possesses, which is not something that is quantifiable by science.

Sorry I don't buy into your bs one bit.
The study is extensive and quite conclusive and I will keep it as a source since the results achieved goes against what the researchers were hoping for and especially what the funding organisation that gave them the money for the study was hoping for, virtually all people involved were hoping for a positive result. 

Feel free to conduct your own prayer study with people that live up to your standard of belief and I'll look forward to the results.

I don't believe in god, but supposing he does exist, if prayer were effective 1 time out of 1,000 that would make it mostly ineffective even if it's because it takes superhuman faith which most people can't muster.

Also if this sort of thing is the case, kind of dickish on god's part.

(January 10, 2018 at 6:35 pm)c152 Wrote:

(January 10, 2018 at 6:20 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: *emphasis mine*

No, it's not safe to say that...



Even Jesus's own disciples failed due to unbelief.

So again your study is nonsense unless it can determine the amount of faith a subject possesses, which is not something that is quantifiable by science.

Sorry I don't buy into your bs one bit.
The study is extensive and quite conclusive and I will keep it as a source since the results achieved goes against what the researchers were hoping for and especially what the funding organisation that gave them the money for the study was hoping for, virtually all people involved were hoping for a positive result. 

Feel free to conduct your own prayer study with people that live up to your standard of belief and I'll look forward to the results.

Let me spell it out for you, science has already acknowledged the fact that belief heals.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magaz...f-placebo/

Quote:Science is showing that how you feel isn’t just about what you eat, or do, or think. It’s about what you believe.

Quote:Pauletich’s improvement after the surgery was impressive. Before the trial he had struggled to move around. He had to constantly explain to clients of his technology development company that his slurred speech wasn’t caused by drinking. After the procedure his shaking disappeared, his mobility improved, and his speech became markedly clearer. (Today you can hardly tell he has the disease at all.) His doctor on the study, Kathleen Poston, was astonished. Strictly speaking, Parkinson’s had never been reversed in humans; the best one could hope for was a slowdown in the progression of the disease, and even that was extremely rare.

Quote:In April 2013, Ceregene announced the results of the trial: Neurturin had failed. Patients who had been treated with the drug did not improve any more significantly than those in a control group who had received a placebo treatment—a sham surgery in which a doctor drilled “divots” into the patient’s skull so that it would feel as if there had been an operation. Ceregene was bought by another company in 2013, and its work on neurturin for Parkinson’s has not been continued.

Poston was crushed. But then she looked at the data and noticed something that stopped her cold. Mike Pauletich hadn’t gotten the real surgery. He had gotten the placebo.

So the fact that belief can heal is not in question, WHETHER IT IS ACHIEVED BY PLACEBO OR PRAYER 'BELIEF' HEALS, THIS IS FACT.

My point to you is any prayer not backed by 'belief' WILL fail. So unless you're saying that belief doesn't in fact have the ability to heal, all your study shows is that the group lacked belief... Got it?

(January 10, 2018 at 6:59 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(January 10, 2018 at 6:35 pm)c152 Wrote: Sorry I don't buy into your bs one bit.
The study is extensive and quite conclusive and I will keep it as a source since the results achieved goes against what the researchers were hoping for and especially what the funding organisation that gave them the money for the study was hoping for, virtually all people involved were hoping for a positive result. 

Feel free to conduct your own prayer study with people that live up to your standard of belief and I'll look forward to the results.

Let me spell it out for you, science has already acknowledged that is is a fact that belief heals.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magaz...f-placebo/

Quote:Science is showing that how you feel isn’t just about what you eat, or do, or think. It’s about what you believe.

Quote:Pauletich’s improvement after the surgery was impressive. Before the trial he had struggled to move around. He had to constantly explain to clients of his technology development company that his slurred speech wasn’t caused by drinking. After the procedure his shaking disappeared, his mobility improved, and his speech became markedly clearer. (Today you can hardly tell he has the disease at all.) His doctor on the study, Kathleen Poston, was astonished. Strictly speaking, Parkinson’s had never been reversed in humans; the best one could hope for was a slowdown in the progression of the disease, and even that was extremely rare.

Quote:In April 2013, Ceregene announced the results of the trial: Neurturin had failed. Patients who had been treated with the drug did not improve any more significantly than those in a control group who had received a placebo treatment—a sham surgery in which a doctor drilled “divots” into the patient’s skull so that it would feel as if there had been an operation. Ceregene was bought by another company in 2013, and its work on neurturin for Parkinson’s has not been continued.

Poston was crushed. But then she looked at the data and noticed something that stopped her cold. Mike Pauletich hadn’t gotten the real surgery. He had gotten the placebo.

So the fact that belief can heal is not in question, WHETHER IT IS ACHIEVED BY PLACEBO OR PRAYER 'BELIEF' HEALS, THIS IS FACT.

And nothing supernatural or religious was proven, it's not easy for you when there is no true Scotsman. 
If one just cooles ones head for a moment something becomes very apparent: can be beneficial, can also be harmful. Goes both ways, like chance, not to be relied upon. 
In any case, no god is involved.

You are very selective with your cut and pastes huggy,

The article goes on to explain that even belief that they have had surgery helps, even when they know it's a placebo !!

''the theater of healing is designed to draw us in by creating powerful expectations in our brains. These expectations drive the so-called placebo effect, which can affect what happens in our bodies as well. Scientists have known about the placebo effect for decades and have used it as a control in drug trials. Now they are seeing placebos as a window into the neurochemical mechanisms that connect the mind with the body, belief with experience.''

It does not connect that belief to your god in any way, just say that believing that the treatment or prayer that you have, helps. Most these trails took place recently, we have yet to see the long term effects.  It could also apply to any religion, belief (including ones that exclude the supernatural) or cult.

*Emphasis mine

(January 10, 2018 at 7:13 pm)possibletarian Wrote: You are very selective with your cut and pastes huggy,

The article goes on to explain that even belief that they have had surgery helps, even when they know it's a placebo !!

''the theater of healing is designed to draw us in by creating powerful expectations in our brains. These expectations drive the so-called placebo effect, which can affect what happens in our bodies as well. Scientists have known about the placebo effect for decades and have used it as a control in drug trials. Now they are seeing placebos as a window into the neurochemical mechanisms that connect the mind with the body, belief with experience.''

It does not connect that belief to your god in any way, just say that believing that the treatment or prayer that you have, helps. Most these trails took place recently, we have yet to see the long term effects.  It could also apply to any religion, belief (including ones that exclude the supernatural) or cult.

*Emphasis mine

Of course science doesn't connect it to God, you can't draw a connection to something if you don't acknowledge it's existence.

Ask yourself this, why is science only just discovering what has been in the Bible for thousands of years?

(January 10, 2018 at 7:22 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(January 10, 2018 at 7:13 pm)possibletarian Wrote: You are very selective with your cut and pastes huggy,

The article goes on to explain that even belief that they have had surgery helps, even when they know it's a placebo !!

''the theater of healing is designed to draw us in by creating powerful expectations in our brains. These expectations drive the so-called placebo effect, which can affect what happens in our bodies as well. Scientists have known about the placebo effect for decades and have used it as a control in drug trials. Now they are seeing placebos as a window into the neurochemical mechanisms that connect the mind with the body, belief with experience.''

It does not connect that belief to your god in any way, just say that believing that the treatment or prayer that you have, helps. Most these trails took place recently, we have yet to see the long term effects.  It could also apply to any religion, belief (including ones that exclude the supernatural)  or cult.

*Emphasis mine

Of course science doesn't connect it to God, you can't draw a connection to something if you don't acknowledge it's existence.

Ask yourself this, why is science only just discovering what has been in the Bible for thousands of years?

You mean like Unicorns, flying chariots talking donkeys and stuff, sorry science hasn't found anything like that.

But your bible says that god heals, this is not what the study is saying, so the bible is irrelevant.  And it's been long known that general good attitude helps with health, again not god or bible related (other than humans observed and wrote about it too).

The level and detail of science has changed nothing more. Just because ignorant religionists connect it to a god means nothing, first you would have to prove a god.