(January 18, 2018 at 2:37 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(January 18, 2018 at 2:28 am)Thena323 Wrote: "aggression", "pressure", "pushiness" or anything but.

What can I say.....it's good to be a guy.   To some extent..this is expected and acceptable behavior for a man. Convenient for predators, not so much for the prey.

The problem is clearly everything she did wrong, though...and how we don't want to impugn his good character....that he's stewarding so very well.

You know no one’s saying that.

Well, I mean..I am..and our society reenforces it. It's not as if it isn't true...and we have spent quite a few pages considering her many sins. I;m just checking for the lines here..seeing what -I- can get away with saying..about this girl.

(January 17, 2018 at 1:56 pm)Shell B Wrote: Note: she remains naked when she goes to the couch with him, which makes me think he could have thought she was uncomfortable with the specific acts they were performing, not with sex altogether, because you could reasonably assume she would get dressed if she was uncomfortable.

Yeah it's all very vague. If you don't want sex anymore you say that you don't want sex anymore. If you just vaguely say that you're uncomfortable and you're already having sex then it could easily mean you're uncomfortable with a specific sexual act that is happening in the moment.

It's important to be clear when you have something important to say. It's not the time for vagueness.

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(January 17, 2018 at 2:01 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 1:58 pm)Mermaid Wrote: This is why I am not going to conclude one way or another about whether sexual assault took place.

The claw isn't a sex act, and she never said to him, "Hey, I don't like you sticking your fingers in my mouth." I stand by the fact that you have to use your words. The sex acts that were performed, she herself said she didn't vocally object to. In other words, she didn't say no when he went down on her, and she didn't say no when she gave him a blowjob, twice. Those are the specific things I'm looking at.

The way she describes how she gave clues/cues that she was uncomfortable while at the same time being aware that he isn't getting it.... is really weird to me. Why would you be thinking in your head "He's not getting it" (or something to that effect) rather than just telling him that he's not getting it?

When she did tell him with the "You guys are all the fucking same" thing ... it sounds to me like that was her true thoughts coming out later. It's like she was hiding her true intentions and allowing him to remain completely oblivious. If you KNOW someone is oblivious... and you want someone to stop what they're doing.... then say what you think rather than expecting them to take a hint when you're already well aware that they're missing all the hints and totally not getting it. I don't get it.

This is like watching a conversation play out in an alternate dimension, lol.  She seemed pretty clear.  If wasn;t her words that were confusing..it was the sucking cock, again, thing, yeah?  Her actions.

He did seem to get it..more than once. It just didn't stop him. He seems to have taken it more as a que to find a different route to the promised land.

So many arguments that say this wasn’t assault are grossly misrepresented in the retelling in this thread. It’s unbelievable how bad it is even in the past few pages. Level-headed discussion just soars out the window.

(January 17, 2018 at 2:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 1:52 pm)Shell B Wrote: That reads really weird to me. I don't know how to take that. Maybe he "chased" her, but I think it seems to leave out a lot. If it went on for thirty minutes, we don't get to hear a lot of dialogue and other actions she must have left out. If he just followed her around jamming his fingers in her throat, silently and with no other actions, that's beyond creepy, but I sincerely doubt that's precisely how it went down. The subtleties are missing, and those would be necessary to making a clear assessment.

Yep, something is off about this description.  Was he pinning her down?  Holding her arms down so that she couldn’t move?  Yanking her back to him?  Pushing her up against the wall?  What exactly happened here, and why is it that we cannot easily infer what happened from her description?  It seems intentionally vague to me.

Just seems to me like she was intentionally being vague and holding back speaking out so she could accuse him and make a news story out of it later. Call me cynical but she had sex with the guy and gave the guy a blow job and then later on wrote a story about how she had all these thoughts about how she was uncomfortable but was keeping them to herself and she felt violated because he couldn't read her mind? Yes he was clearly not getting some very obvious cues, but she was very clearly aware that he totally wasn't getting some very obvious cues, and it seems like this was almost premeditated on her part. To me. Call me cynical but I don't care this is what I reckon based on the info given so far.

She was entrapping him! Viiiiile temptress!

That has to be bingo, we have to have won something.

(January 17, 2018 at 2:03 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 2:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Yep, something is off about this description.  Was he pinning her down?  Holding her arms down so that she couldn’t move?  Yanking her back to him?  Pushing her up against the wall?  What exactly happened here, and why is it that we cannot easily infer what happened from her description?  It seems intentionally vague to me.

Remembering, of course, that Grace didn't write it. It was written by a "journalist" whose job it is make a story interesting.

I wonder how this would have played out if he were not a celebrity . . .

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(January 17, 2018 at 2:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 1:58 pm)Mermaid Wrote: This is why I am not going to conclude one way or another about whether sexual assault took place.

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I don't think any of us that weren't there can possibly know.

Just going by her account. According to her account, sexual assault did not happen. Unless something was left out or not made clear.

By her own account it clearly isn't assault but she still wants to accuse him of it anyway. Five minutes of fame for her.

Call me cynical... but I am cynical so it would be appropriate to call me that.

I wonder how many more times I can say "call me cynical." Call me cynical. I can't stop saying it now.

Now I aint sayin she a gold digger......

If he did actually assault her then that's bad. But going purely by the story... this isn't assault. And by default he's innocent.

Starting a serious accusation unless it's actually true is wrong. Just because there's no evidence doesn't mean her accusation is wrong. But it would be wrong if she knows he didn't assault her and she just accused him of this because he's a celebrity.

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(January 17, 2018 at 2:12 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Isn't a forced blow job kinda risky?
Biting is a thing.

Yeah... she gave him a blow job and he failed to read her own thoughts in her head saying "I don't wanna be doing this." So he's a sexual assaulter because she regrets icky sex involving icky sexual moves including her willingly sucking his presumably icky dick. Time to get him to send you home after wandering his house naked and make sure that TOMORROW you TEXT him that you didn't feel comfortable during the whole thing, and make sure that after you get his apology you also get his news story.

Makes perfect sense /sarcasm.

From what I can see he seems like an oblivious creepy weirdo comedian I've never even heard of... and she sounds far from honest and open. From the story. From the story it reads like her holding back her true thoughts while being very clearly aware of how very clearly unaware he is. And ignoring it and only becoming clear at the end so you can make a sexist comment about how ALL men are like him. Which clearly isn't true. Thankfully not all men are like him. And thankfully not all women are like her.

I agree with Shell, if I had a kid... whether it's male or female... they'd both be less pathetic than him/her.

If I'm coming across as a jerk... it's because I'm coming across as one.

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(January 17, 2018 at 2:20 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 2:08 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Note that were gently drifting to calling her or whomever wrote the story a fibber..now, anyone?  Before it didn't sound like an assualt.  Now it sounds like maybe the assaulty elements were sensationalized?

-and nobodies victim blaming or perp defending, in the least.

:whistles an innocent tune:

(I couldn't help it, just a jab..hehehe)

Calm down, dumby. We're saying a journalist wrote the story, not Grace. No one called her a fibber. We're saying there's obviously gaps in the story, which there are.

Yeah we don't know what her story would be if she wrote it. We can only go by the journalist. We're not dealing with anything real regardless. We're dealing with a story here, not with the events that actually took place.

But one thing is for sure... unless there's any actual evidence of sexual assault... then accusations like this are completely pointless... except they do get her a news story. So let's hope she's actually got that evidence if he did actually assault her and let's hope he didn't actually assault her and he really is just a weirdo and she was just unnecessarily vague... especially so considering that (from the story) she seemed aware that he was not getting the message. All the more reason to be especially clear.

And if you've already been having sex with someone, and already sucked their dick, and you're in their house.... then it's even more important to be clear that you don't just feel uncomfortable in the moment with what is happening sexually.... but that you've had enough of sex altogether. And not just sex. You don't want kisses either. Oh, and you don't like it when he sticks his finger in your mouth.

It's really not rocket science to say "I don't like that."

"I'm uncomfortable" is unnecessarily vague. It's not especially strange that he stopped current sexual acts and moved onto a different one when she wasn't specific about what was making her uncomfortable. What is strange is how her hints were rather clear and he was nevertheless oblivious.... but she was also very aware that he was unaware (again, going by the story) and kept her feelings of violation to herself until the last minute. If someone does something you don't like... tell them you don't like it. If you are uncomfortable, say what you are uncomfortable with... if you want them to stop... tell them what you want them to stop. If you want them to stop physical contact, say stop touching me. None of it is really rocket science... basically once you've already engaged in sex with someone then that's not the time for being non-specific that's the time for being specific.

I don't get it. I don't know why stories like this happen... I feel like it really demeans real rape victims if stories of a creepy pushy guy can get compared to sexual assault. If he did actually assault her, then that's awful and I hope she has the evidence. If not then the accusations only serve to give her a news story.

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(January 17, 2018 at 2:20 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 2:07 pm)Mermaid Wrote: I think she actually did claim he assaulted her. But I am not completely clear on that, the headlines are all sensationalistic

What I meant was what she described is not sexual assault.

But yes, she did blatantly accuse him of sexual assault, but her story doesn't match her accusation.

I agree. Her story does not match her accusation.

But it does match a possible desire for having a news story.

I do wonder if this accusation would have even happened if he were not a celebrity.

Celebrities sure as hell do abuse their power and stuff... but this doesn't look like one of those stories.

There are cases when celebrities abuse their power and then there are cases when celebrities make mistakes just like everyone else does, and non-celebrities use it to make a story out of it.

She wasn't clear.... she left things open to interpretation. Which makes it easier to make a story out of because you can't prove she wasn't raped and the fact he didn't get her hints makes him seem creepy and pushy. The fact some people think that what she described was assault and some people think what she described wasn't assault... it all just shows how vague she was. If this were really clearly sexual assault... everyone and their dog would be able to tell.

It's easier to make a story out of something if you're thinking about how someone is misinterpreting your hints when you're giving your hints... rather than just telling them honesty and openly.

Etc, etc. Blah blah blah.

I guess I'm still on a couple of threads atm.

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(January 17, 2018 at 2:20 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 2:13 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I think that when she blew him, she blew it.

😂   /thread

^

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(January 17, 2018 at 2:25 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Being naked is not consent.

Taking your clothes off certainly doesn't non-verbally communicate "no" or "stop".

If to have sex you have to first say "You may now put your penis inside my vagina" would nobody have sex ever or would everyone's penis and clit simultaneously shrivel to the size of atom? Those are the two options.

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(January 17, 2018 at 2:33 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was. “Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”

During something so important cues/clues/hints are ridiculously inappropriate when someone needs to be told something especially clearly more than any other time. This is not time to play "Guess how you're making me feel and guess how completely unaware of it you are." This is time to play "Get your fingers out of my mouth. Get away from me. Don't kiss me. Don't even touch me."

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(January 18, 2018 at 3:03 am)Hammy Wrote: During something so important cues/clues/hints are ridiculously inappropriate when someone needs to be told something especially clearly more than any other time. This is not time to play "Guess how you're making me feel and guess how completely unaware of it you are." This is time to play "Get your fingers out of my mouth. Get away from me. Don't kiss me. Don't even touch me."

Yeah. This.

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(January 17, 2018 at 2:35 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 2:31 pm)alpha male Wrote: Being naked creates the rebuttable presumption that the naked person is interested in sex.

Being naked is not consent.

If you're already having sex with someone and you don't say "stop"... that's consent.

If you suck they guy's dick and you don't tell the guy you stopped enjoying it... it's not rape because he didn't read your thoughts about stopping enjoying it. It's your job to say "I want us to stop having sex now."

The alternative is to constantly say "You may continue having sex with me. You may continue having sex with me. You may continue having sex with me. Don't stop. Don't stop. Don't stop." constantly.... and even that wouldn't be enough because what if you hadn't affirmitiavely consented in between your breathes? A person can only talk so fast! You may say "Don't stop." twice and in between saying it twice you had a thought where you wanted the guy to stop but you couldn't say it in time and you already changed your mind and wanted to continue before you got your words out.

Like literally... that would be ridiculous. It would be impossible to consent if it had to be in affirmative form.

Yes, if you meet someone on the street or even at a party and you don't know them and they start trying to physically fuck you... then that would be assault. But if you strip off naked with him and suck his dick.... it's not rape if he then touches your body and you didn't say "touch my body please" first. Like you don't need to literally spell out every sex act you want the other person to do to you. How would it even be possible to be sexually submissive if that was the case? If you had to tell everyone what to sexually do to you all the time, then how could you even enjoy them telling you what to do instead? Once you've started having sex with someone already, then consent is assumed during sex until you say "stop" or "stop touching me" or "get away from me." Otherwise how would sex even work?

Affirmative consent isn't even possible. Once sex is started you can't constantly say "don't stop" fast enough to even possibly make that work. You have to use dissent, you have to say "stop" once something has started... if you don't want it to continue.

It's really demeaning to compare a guy's inability to read a woman's mind to the really sick men who actually do genuinely sexually assault women. And real victims of sexual assault shouldn't be compared to women who know that the guy is not taken their hints and know that a guy is being oblivious and yet they continue to be vague rather than be especially clear when they know they especially need to be.

In matters like this it is NEVER a good idea to give hints or be vague. And if you know the guy is not taking the hint it's even MORE important not to give hints or be vague. This is not time to hope that the guy who has so far missed every hint suddenly gets your hints.... this is time to play "Don't touch me. Get away from me."

If the guy keeps touching you after you say "Don't touch me" then there's no way you could possibly have been misunderstood. And say it loudly and if you say it twice clearly and pull yourself away and he is still touching you then it's extremely clear that you're a victim of sexual assault and not a victim of a miscommunication.

Sigh. (My sigh is irrelevant).

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(January 17, 2018 at 4:08 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 4:05 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Or to put it another way:

If I went on a date, brought that date home, she got naked, and I asked her "Did you want to have sex?", she'd probably think I was a little slow on the uptake.

I wouldn't . And i think people should ask .

No one would have sex ever if sex had to always be preceded with the question "Can we have sex now?".

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(January 17, 2018 at 4:15 pm)Shell B Wrote: OMG, you're calling him a rapist now, Khem. Fuckin' hell. Sometimes I get the sense that "feminist-friendly" dudes often just demonize anyone who even slightly upsets a woman for fear of not being true to the "cause." It's definitely a trend I've seen in this forum.

I'm a feminist but fuck those guys who white knight anyone but their crush or significant other