So, as long as we worship something everything will be okay. Excellent, I have some biscuits and gravy, let us pray. You do realize that some amazon tribes still engage in cannibalism yes? I mean other than eating people, they're fucking squared away with christ. Moral principles would absolutely exist without christianity because they were formed well before christianity. There is no chicken or egg situation here. I totally understand the analogy to the UK breaking the chains of religion and then failing to live up to the notions of freedom. We should go back to a time when religion was in control. The inquisition sounds nice, is the wayback machine ready yet? That you think that "cavepeople" were "without religion" because they were without christianity is flat out epic. Ice cream only comes in one flavor for some I suppose.

You have an issue with rolling around drunk in gutters? ::end conversation::

Lastly, the people who flew airplanes into the twin towers were practicing exactly what was preached to them. The people who burnt "witches" alive were doing exactly what was preached to them. The moral argument for christianity is a joke.

I have a question, TT. How old are you? Were you alive in the 1950s/60s? If not, what are you basing your opinion that the UK in the 50s was 'more moral' than today? A lot of media (such as the Daily Mail) like to paint this rose-tinted picture of the past when looking at current problems, trying to convince us it wouldn't have happened back in the good old days so they can push their agenda of the moral decline of society. Of course the reality is completely different. Bear in mind that we have far greater access to information now, so it's much easier to see examples of it happening.

You also can't have it both ways. Your original post said that you felt the loss of religion has resulted in a loss of morality or something. It's been pointed out to you that very religious countries tend to be much more violent and have higher crime rates.

In short, your entire point is demonstrably false and is very selective in choosing to ignore all the bad things that have happened in your apparently more moral times. The civil rights movement happened after the time you're talking about. If that's not a positive moral step, what is?

Quote:You say lad so I may guess you may be from the U.K also.

That's right, I'm from good old blighty.

Quote: I can agree to an extent that some secular societies are less barbaric than religious ones.

I think a vast majority are. Morality never came from religion, it came from us, religion just stepped it and claimed it was the one that brought basic rules about.

Quote:But generally I feel that is a east vs west thing rather than religious argument.

Not entirely. The east was once very advanced and well educated, hundreds of years ago of course. Education and discipline is what produces a strong sense of morality and order.

Quote:I feel in general the west has become more civilised over time. I guess what I was thinking about was 1950s Britain, and how the form of christianity to me gave it a better sense of right and wrong than we have today. Perhaps other factors weighing into it all aswell as the religious argument.

I saw guidance within myself. Didn't need any religion or group to show me the rule book. I'm not the only one, many like me have never believed in god and turned out perfectly fine. Many theists have done some pretty awful shit, in fact they dominate our prisons.
A person having trouble being decent in society I think has nothing to do with beliefs or lack of. I think it's mainly due to bad parenting, lack of discipline and education. I was raised in a very stable family. Both my parents to keep me on the straight and narrow, they used discipline when needed and taught me an awful lot. With or without religion, there will always be those who do good and others who do bad.

Quote:I guess because christianity is the precedent in the u.k it is difficult to determine whether or moral principles would exist without that Christian history.

Christianity didn't invent morality. In many ways, it stood against it. Millions have been killed in the name of religion. People burnt at the states for lacking belief, the inquisition caused a lot of suffering, so did the witch hunt. When the black death broke out, people killed each other thinking they had been claimed by the devil.
Religion didn't invent or develop morality.

Quote: If we take the the u.k as an example again, I would say a large percentage have lost their traditional faith in religion. To me it seems that now the "chains" of religion have been removed, secular society is not living up to the promise of "freedom."

Not quite free of religious nuttery quite yet. Sweden is way ahead with that. Social disorder and the like can be the result of any number of things. As I've mentioned above. I wouldn't so quickly point the finger and secularism. Educated people don't commit violent crimes. Just as you wouldn't catch Charles Darwin robbing the bank.

Quote: I feel we are not promoting an example,

Secularism on it's own is about the seperation of religion from all civil matters in a country. What your looking for is secular-humanism. For which I support all the way.

Quote: in that we can behave properly without the restraints of religion around us.

I can and have.

Quote: This is my opinion only, but the whole premise to my original question/ramble, is how can we preserve morality in secular society, through choice rather than fear, because to me it seems like we are failing.

Parenting, discipline and education. Me thinks anyway.

Quote:Bring a third person into the equation and he may consider kissing scenes on television immoral, wheras I wouldnt.

Morality can be subjective. Some think it's immoral to smack kids, some others don't. But society as a whole tend to have a universal agreement that such things as murder, theft and the like to be absolutely disgusting.
You could just leave it as - If an action causes a negative outcome on any person or business, it is there for wrong.

What do you think?

(August 31, 2011 at 3:41 pm)ElDinero Wrote: I have a question, TT. How old are you? Were you alive in the 1950s/60s? If not, what are you basing your opinion that the UK in the 50s was 'more moral' than today? A lot of media (such as the Daily Mail) like to paint this rose-tinted picture of the past when looking at current problems, trying to convince us it wouldn't have happened back in the good old days so they can push their agenda of the moral decline of society. Of course the reality is completely different. Bear in mind that we have far greater access to information now, so it's much easier to see examples of it happening.

You also can't have it both ways. Your original post said that you felt the loss of religion has resulted in a loss of morality or something. It's been pointed out to you that very religious countries tend to be much more violent and have higher crime rates.

In short, your entire point is demonstrably false and is very selective in choosing to ignore all the bad things that have happened in your apparently more moral times. The civil rights movement happened after the time you're talking about. If that's not a positive moral step, what is?

im early 20s. This the argument my gf puts across to me also. So I cannot verify what it was like exactly in those times, but only from what people say, so I guess in that sense I cannot really make a true comparison. But yes it would be the media, but also the older generations that have highlighted the stark differences in current society and past society.

Well when I think of religious societies that are still very violent I immediately think of the islamic countries in the east. But again like I said i feel this may also have a cultural/ east vs west dimension to it as I find most christian communities/ countries to be very peaceful.

Perhaps I am being selective too. Like I said, im going round in circles in my head. trying to fathom it all out. Not claiming anything I say as true. But just having a good old discussion

---

(August 31, 2011 at 3:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So, as long as we worship something everything will be okay. Excellent, I have some biscuits and gravy, let us pray. You do realize that some amazon tribes still engage in cannibalism yes? I mean other than eating people, they're fucking squared away with christ. Moral principles would absolutely exist without christianity because they were formed well before christianity. There is no chicken or egg situation here. I totally understand the analogy to the UK breaking the chains of religion and then failing to live up to the notions of freedom. We should go back to a time when religion was in control. The inquisition sounds nice, is the wayback machine ready yet? That you think that "cavepeople" were "without religion" because they were without christianity is flat out epic. Ice cream only comes in one flavor for some I suppose.

You have an issue with rolling around drunk in gutters? ::end conversation::

Lastly, the people who flew airplanes into the twin towers were practicing exactly what was preached to them. The people who burnt "witches" alive were doing exactly what was preached to them. The moral argument for christianity is a joke.

True but I feel religion can evolve. Modern day christianity in some places has evolved to the modern world. Some churches allowing female ministers gay marriage etc. Im not saying we should go back, as we never can. Perhaps what Im saying is we need to adjust things slightly.

When females put forward an argument about moral decline, it's usually to avoid sleeping with someone. Something about a paycheck and abs. So I'm told.

Religions absolutely do evolve over time. Much blood has been spilled. Thing is, if we wanted religion to evolve into concordance with what we do know, while still postulating on what we don't, it wouldn't be much of a religion.

(August 31, 2011 at 3:52 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

Quote:You say lad so I may guess you may be from the U.K also.

That's right, I'm from good old blighty.

Quote: I can agree to an extent that some secular societies are less barbaric than religious ones.

I think a vast majority are. Morality never came from religion, it came from us, religion just stepped it and claimed it was the one that brought basic rules about.

Quote:But generally I feel that is a east vs west thing rather than religious argument.

Not entirely. The east was once very advanced and well educated, hundreds of years ago of course. Education and discipline is what produces a strong sense of morality and order.

Quote:I feel in general the west has become more civilised over time. I guess what I was thinking about was 1950s Britain, and how the form of christianity to me gave it a better sense of right and wrong than we have today. Perhaps other factors weighing into it all aswell as the religious argument.

I saw guidance within myself. Didn't need any religion or group to show me the rule book. I'm not the only one, many like me have never believed in god and turned out perfectly fine. Many theists have done some pretty awful shit, in fact they dominate our prisons.
A person having trouble being decent in society I think has nothing to do with beliefs or lack of. I think it's mainly due to bad parenting, lack of discipline and education. I was raised in a very stable family. Both my parents to keep me on the straight and narrow, they used discipline when needed and taught me an awful lot. With or without religion, there will always be those who do good and others who do bad.

Quote:I guess because christianity is the precedent in the u.k it is difficult to determine whether or moral principles would exist without that Christian history.

Christianity didn't invent morality. In many ways, it stood against it. Millions have been killed in the name of religion. People burnt at the states for lacking belief, the inquisition caused a lot of suffering, so did the witch hunt. When the black death broke out, people killed each other thinking they had been claimed by the devil.
Religion didn't invent or develop morality.

Quote: If we take the the u.k as an example again, I would say a large percentage have lost their traditional faith in religion. To me it seems that now the "chains" of religion have been removed, secular society is not living up to the promise of "freedom."

Not quite free of religious nuttery quite yet. Sweden is way ahead with that. Social disorder and the like can be the result of any number of things. As I've mentioned above. I wouldn't so quickly point the finger and secularism. Educated people don't commit violent crimes. Just as you wouldn't catch Charles Darwin robbing the bank.

Quote: I feel we are not promoting an example,

Secularism on it's own is about the seperation of religion from all civil matters in a country. What your looking for is secular-humanism. For which I support all the way.

Quote: in that we can behave properly without the restraints of religion around us.

I can and have.

Quote: This is my opinion only, but the whole premise to my original question/ramble, is how can we preserve morality in secular society, through choice rather than fear, because to me it seems like we are failing.

Parenting, discipline and education. Me thinks anyway.

Quote:Bring a third person into the equation and he may consider kissing scenes on television immoral, wheras I wouldnt.

Morality can be subjective. Some think it's immoral to smack kids, some others don't. But society as a whole tend to have a universal agreement that such things as murder, theft and the like to be absolutely disgusting.
You could just leave it as - If an action causes a negative outcome on any person or business, it is there for wrong.

What do you think?

I guess so possibly. I will have a look into secular-humanism. But with all this talk which would suggest me favouring a religious society. The state and church or mosque or whatever has to be seperate. For me it is a strong belief in seperating the two.

The only decline I've seen is the decline in your expectation that we'll actually make you a sandwich when you tell us to.

Otherwise, humans is humans.

(August 31, 2011 at 4:01 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: The only decline I've seen is the decline in your expectation that we'll actually make you a sandwich when you tell us to.

Otherwise, humans is humans.

Okay Okay, fair enough. But what if I held a giant club over your head while asking for a sandwich? Or, what if I threatened to sell you to my cousin if you refused me?

(past states of morality BTW Trooper, ah the good old days)

(August 31, 2011 at 4:01 pm)TeslaTrooper Wrote: I guess so possibly. I will have a look into secular-humanism. But with all this talk which would suggest me favouring a religious society. The state and church or mosque or whatever has to be seperate. For me it is a strong belief in seperating the two.

What matters most is your heart and your head. Don't listen to some preacher, don't listen to iron age books to tell you what's right or wrong. Think for yourself. Put yourself in the shoes of others and it will come to you.

One of the big problems we have, is that so many will not try. So many can't be reasoned with. It is those who cannot and will not use reason that will continue to fail in peaceful and productive rolls in society.

(August 31, 2011 at 7:26 am)TeslaTrooper Wrote: Its basically a concept I have been grappling with for a while. For those of us who aren't religious or live in secular societies, it would appear that their is a significant correlation with the decline in morality, and the decline in religion. In the past In my country, Christianity provided a "moral guideline" if you will for how we should live our lives

For the most part this "past morality" you speak of was an illusion. Throughout history, violence has always gone hand in hand with religion, and due to the church's vice-grip control over the uneducated masses, morally reprehensible acts were simply kept in secret far better than they are today. People are people, and the same desires to be free and live the life you choose existed every bit as much 500 years ago as they do today.

Quote:... if there is no God and if religion is a farce, then who is to say that the way they are living/behaving is wrong?

Why do you need someone to tell you what is wrong? You do realize that it's just going to be their own subjective opinion anyway right?

For me this is how I define "wrong": Does my action hurt someone else? (not offend - HURT) In addition, is my action so self-serving that in the long run, someone is going to have to pay dearly for it. (ie. dumping toxic waste into an aquifer that is meant to sustain life for hundreds of years)


Also, the christians version of morality and the muslims version of morality differ greatly. Which god should we rely on for this morality you THINK we are lacking??