Lol, Tiz. WE have the alternative beverage... an alternative to the kool aid...

(March 13, 2018 at 1:55 pm)He lives Wrote: ...There has been research done on out of body. I don't know it you are aware of the research that was done by Dr. Tart: 

Dr. Charles Tart, professor emeritus of psychology at the University of California–Davis, performed one of the most famous studies on OBEs. He tested a woman, whom he referred to in the study as Miss Z, by placing a number on a shelf above the bed on which she slept. He watched her as she slept to insure she did not physically get up and look at the number.

The 5-digit number was randomly selected after she had gone to sleep, and it was brought into the room in an opaque envelope. Miss Z reported having left her body while lying on the bed and having floated up to look at the number. She correctly stated the number as it was written on the paper.

"During the experiment Tart monitored the equipment in the next room, behind an observation window, however, he admitted he had occasionally dozed during the night."
~ Wikipedia, Charles Tart

By his own admission, she was not constantly monitored as you seem to imply above.  She had ample opportunity to rise up and take a peek during one of his "naps."  In fact, according to Susan Blackmore, there is even evidence that she did just that.  In her words, "If Miss Z had tried to climb up, the brain-wave record would have showed a pattern of interference. And that was exactly what it did show." (Wikipedia, ibid.)

Moreover, there's evidence that the content of alleged OBEs is hallucinatory (see below).  If some OBE content is hallucinatory, it stands to reason that all OBE content is hallucinatory.  It would be absurd to maintain that some OBEs are fake, but not all of them.

Quote:(4) In a study of 264 subjects with sleep paralysis[3], Giorgio Buzzi and Fabio Cirignotta found that about 11% of their subjects (28 people) "viewed themselves lying on the bed, generally from a location above the bed" (Buzzi 2116). As Buzzi points out, however, these out-of-body experiences often included false perceptions of the physical environment:

I invited these people to do the following simple reality tests: trying to identify objects put in unusual places; checking the time on the clock; and focusing on a detail of the scene, and comparing it with reality.

I received a feedback [sic] from five individuals. Objects put in unusual places (eg, on top of the wardrobe) were never identified during out-of-body experiences. Clocks also proved to be unreliable: a woman with nightly episodes of sleep paralysis had two out-of-body experiences in the same night, and for each the clock indicated an impossible time.... Finally, in all cases but one, some slight but important differences in the details were noted: "I looked at 'me' sleeping peacefully in the bed while I wandered about. Trouble is the 'me' in the bed was wearing long johns ... I have never worn such a thing" (Buzzi 2116-2117).

Buzzi concludes that because these experiences contained out-of-body discrepancies and failed his other 'reality tests,' his subjects' out-of-body imagery must have been derived from memory and imagination rather than from the physical environment at the time (2117).

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(8) Other NDErs have reported seeing friends out-of-body with them who are, in reality, still alive and normally conscious. The Evergreen Study also recorded a clearly hallucinatory near-death experience after a major car accident:

Well, then I remember, not physical bodies but like holding hands, the two of us, up above the trees. It was a cloudy day, a little bit of clouds. And thinking here we go, we're going off into eternity... and then bingo, I snapped my eyes open and I looked over and he was staring at me [ellipsis original] (Lindley, Bryan, and Conley 110).

The authors of the study go on to write: "In this incident a woman had lost consciousness but her male companion had not. In the experience, she perceived the two of them in an out-of-body state, yet her friend never blacked out" (110).

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More at: Hallucinatory Near-Death Experiences

Yup more fraudulent  experiments . And we can do this all day . This nonsense has been refuted .

(March 13, 2018 at 4:19 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(March 13, 2018 at 1:55 pm)He lives Wrote: ...There has been research done on out of body. I don't know it you are aware of the research that was done by Dr. Tart: 

Dr. Charles Tart, professor emeritus of psychology at the University of California–Davis, performed one of the most famous studies on OBEs. He tested a woman, whom he referred to in the study as Miss Z, by placing a number on a shelf above the bed on which she slept. He watched her as she slept to insure she did not physically get up and look at the number.

The 5-digit number was randomly selected after she had gone to sleep, and it was brought into the room in an opaque envelope. Miss Z reported having left her body while lying on the bed and having floated up to look at the number. She correctly stated the number as it was written on the paper.

Jormungandr Wrote:"During the experiment Tart monitored the equipment in the next room, behind an observation window, however, he admitted he had occasionally dozed during the night."
~ Wikipedia, Charles Tart

By his own admission, she was not constantly monitored as you seem to imply above.  She had ample opportunity to rise up and take a peek during one of his "naps."  In fact, according to Susan Blackmore, there is even evidence that she did just that.  In her words, "If Miss Z had tried to climb up, the brain-wave record would have showed a pattern of interference. And that was exactly what it did show." (Wikipedia, ibid.)

Moreover, there's evidence that the content of alleged OBEs is hallucinatory (see below).  If some OBE content is hallucinatory, it stands to reason that all OBE content is hallucinatory.  It would be absurd to maintain that some OBEs are fake, but not all of them.

Quote:(4) In a study of 264 subjects with sleep paralysis[3], Giorgio Buzzi and Fabio Cirignotta found that about 11% of their subjects (28 people) "viewed themselves lying on the bed, generally from a location above the bed" (Buzzi 2116). As Buzzi points out, however, these out-of-body experiences often included false perceptions of the physical environment:

I invited these people to do the following simple reality tests: trying to identify objects put in unusual places; checking the time on the clock; and focusing on a detail of the scene, and comparing it with reality.

I received a feedback [sic] from five individuals. Objects put in unusual places (eg, on top of the wardrobe) were never identified during out-of-body experiences. Clocks also proved to be unreliable: a woman with nightly episodes of sleep paralysis had two out-of-body experiences in the same night, and for each the clock indicated an impossible time.... Finally, in all cases but one, some slight but important differences in the details were noted: "I looked at 'me' sleeping peacefully in the bed while I wandered about. Trouble is the 'me' in the bed was wearing long johns ... I have never worn such a thing" (Buzzi 2116-2117).

Buzzi concludes that because these experiences contained out-of-body discrepancies and failed his other 'reality tests,' his subjects' out-of-body imagery must have been derived from memory and imagination rather than from the physical environment at the time (2117).

---

(8) Other NDErs have reported seeing friends out-of-body with them who are, in reality, still alive and normally conscious. The Evergreen Study also recorded a clearly hallucinatory near-death experience after a major car accident:

Well, then I remember, not physical bodies but like holding hands, the two of us, up above the trees. It was a cloudy day, a little bit of clouds. And thinking here we go, we're going off into eternity... and then bingo, I snapped my eyes open and I looked over and he was staring at me [ellipsis original] (Lindley, Bryan, and Conley 110).

The authors of the study go on to write: "In this incident a woman had lost consciousness but her male companion had not. In the experience, she perceived the two of them in an out-of-body state, yet her friend never blacked out" (110).

---

More at: Hallucinatory Near-Death Experiences

Quote:A few bad apples is not a good defence. Scientists have had failures too. Just saying.

(March 13, 2018 at 9:03 pm)He lives Wrote: A few bad apples is not a good defence. Scientists have had failures too. Just saying.

What kind of a response is that? Are you suggesting that some OBEs are fake but that others are real? Based on what? They appear to be the same phenomena, the only reason you want to suggest otherwise is because concluding that they are all hallucinatory is in conflict with your argument. That's not a reason to believe there is a difference between hallucinatory OBEs and those for which it's an open question. This is just wishful thinking on your part.

(March 13, 2018 at 9:03 pm)He lives Wrote: A few bad apples is not a good defence. Scientists have had failures too. Just saying.

I think the point Jörmungandr was making was, each and every time these claims are looked at in depth the conclusion is always the same; no evidence of the afterlife is found. The same goes for UFOs, alien designed pyramids, Bigfoot and perambulating Irish statues.

Just saying.

eta, Ninja'd

This stuff doesn't carry water with skeptics, HL. Not because we're opposed to believing it... but because the proof surrounding the claims is frail. None of these claims survives intense scrutiny. What would really help is if the thing was repeatable. If different scientists could replicate the results of the OOB experiments independently, that would help tremendously. If the phenomenon was real, it would be verified by all kinds of different sources. If you showed us evidence that OOB experiences were real, and the results were repeatable, we would consider the claims plausible.

That's what it would take to convince me, anyway.

(March 13, 2018 at 10:18 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(March 13, 2018 at 9:03 pm)He lives Wrote: A few bad apples is not a good defence. Scientists have had failures too. Just saying.

Jormungandr Wrote:What kind of a response is that?  Are you suggesting that some OBEs are fake but that others are real?  Based on what?  They appear to be the same phenomena, the only reason you want to suggest otherwise is because concluding that they are all hallucinatory is in conflict with your argument.  That's not a reason to believe there is a difference between hallucinatory OBEs and those for which it's an open question.  This is just wishful thinking on your part.

Quote:I already know there are some people who wrote fake NDE stories. I have read many books on NDEs and watched TV shows,etc. I believe that most of the full blown NDEs are reputable. An unfortunate consequence is there is a high divorce rate for people who have NDEs. I believe this is due to the great change in lifestyle and conviction that comes to those who experience an NDE. Some of the people who have had NDEs have come back with greater knowledge as was the case with Rajaa Benamour. One of my neighbors had a NDE. She has since moved. She told me about what she saw and how it changed her life. In her life review she was shown how she could have done some things differently. Each story, though different, is kind of like another piece of a puzzle to me as I want to know what the spirit world is like. I also believe that testing people who have never had a real OBE or a did not have a NDE, is not practical or reliable.

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(March 13, 2018 at 10:29 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(March 13, 2018 at 9:03 pm)He lives Wrote: A few bad apples is not a good defence. Scientists have had failures too. Just saying.

Succubus Wrote:I think the point Jörmungandr was making was, each and every time these claims are looked at in depth the conclusion is always the same; no evidence of the afterlife is found. The same goes for UFOs, alien designed pyramids, Bigfoot and perambulating Irish statues.

Just saying.

eta, Ninja'd

How many NDE books have you read to get your in depth conclusion?

(March 13, 2018 at 4:05 am)IWNKYAAIMI Wrote:

(March 13, 2018 at 2:17 am)Godscreated Wrote:  Oh yes, you're funny and do not know who Jesus is, but one day you will meet Him, you should do that before your time runs out.

GC

Hang on... You're the one telling everyone to get to know God, and that you already know him. So when someone asks you direct questions about how you to get to know him, why so evasive? I would have thought that being a Christian involved leading people in the right direction, not bragging about your knowledge but at the same time keeping it to yourself.
I personally think you have no more Knowledge of God than anyone else, but it makes you feel good to think that you do.

Wrong I've explained numerous times how to come to know God, it's not my fault you have closed your ears to my witness. Jesus said let those who have ears hear and those who have eyes see, you have both and do neither. You want to blame me for your failure, I've done as God has asked the rest is up to you.

GC

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(March 13, 2018 at 3:12 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(March 13, 2018 at 2:17 am)Godscreated Wrote:  Believe me when I say I wouldn't expect you to understand. The prayers were within my personal relationship with God and being so makes it none of your business, I do not care you do not believe me, I know the truth and that is what matters.

GC

Please believe me when I say I wouldn't expect you to agree with me either.  If it were none of my business you should never have posted it on a public forum.  That makes it anyone's business who cares to comment on it.  You think you know the truth and that makes you pretty much like everyone else, except that some of us are open to the possibility of being wrong sometimes.  You seem to be immune from such doubts, but it isn't something I can congratulate you for.

 I did not post what my prayers were, just that they were and were answered, there's nothing wrong with that and you know it. You certainly have never shown you were open to being wrong about God on the contrary you have said that there is no God. How am I suppose to doubt God exists when He has proven to me that He does, you're saying that I should doubt what I know is fact, that's crazy. Something else you are not open to and that is evolution is a wrong idea.

GC

(March 13, 2018 at 11:49 pm)Godscreated Wrote: Something else you are not open to and that is evolution is a wrong idea.

GC

I'm prepared to cast it aside just as soon as I hear an even better idea. God did it in strange and wonderful ways is not an explanation; it is the admission that the solution is beyond your powers of comprehension. Evolution is not much doubted in science circles. I think it may be abiogenesis you're thinking of. But there again assigning it to cosmic magician is the same as saying it beats you; it is not an explanation at all. Not all the steps for biogenesis have been reproduced, but once it has we will understand it. Deciding God did it explains nothing.