(February 21, 2012 at 9:52 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: So I ask you, is it really so surprising that through all of these astounding processes that occur every second of everyday; a consciousnous with its own views and tastes emerges?

A consciousness emerges?

So what is it that has become 'conscious'? The consciousness itself?

Isn't that a bit circular?

(February 21, 2012 at 9:52 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: So to conclude my point and in answer to your question: "What is having that experience?"... that is, you are.

Well, that's the question that the Eastern Mystics would then pose to you.

Who are you?

In fact you had spoken about a 'blank slate' in the case of amnesia. And suggested that one of you had 'died' and now a brand 'new you' is working with a 'blank slate'.



So who is this 'new you' that is working with the 'blank slate' that you have just proclaimed represented the 'old you'.

There exists huge problems with trying to define the 'you' as the content of the slate. And clearly if the 'new you' is working with a brand new 'blank slate', then that 'new you' must necessarily be something other than the content of the slate.

This is precisely what the Eastern Mystics are attempting to get at. You cannot be the 'you' that you think you are. You are necessarily something other than the sum total of information that you have come to believe defines you.

That is the deeply mystical question. When the slate has been wiped clean, then who is left to experience that clean slate?

That is the 'you' that the Eastern Mystics are concerned with. That is what they consider to be the "True You". All else is informational illusion.

(February 21, 2012 at 9:52 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: (P.S. I would also like to point out that I'm slightly insulted by being bundled in with someone else. It is rather galling when you look at your reply and find someones decided you're going to be the afterthought to an unrelated point someone else made. I'm sure it wasn't intentional.)

Definitely not intentional. Just the hazards of discussing things on a public forum. I'm actually addressing the deepest concept of asking just what it is that is having an experience.

Stardust is stardust. Atoms are atoms. If these things are incapable of having an experience as random dust, then why should they suddenly be able to have an experience if they take on a complex pattern?

It's the same stuff. How did it go from not being able to have an experience, to now being able to experience things?

What is is that is actually having an experience?

This is a very deep question that secular explanations have not even remotely come close to addressing (at least not to my satisfaction)

This is why address these issues when people tend to imply that science has some sort of 'answer'. It truly doesn't. All it has is speculation not unlike the Eastern Mystics. They're on equal footing when it comes to the mystery of asking just what it is that's experiencing consciousness.

Neither can explain it.

Eastern mystics surrender to the fact that it will always be a mystery (this is precisely why they call it mysticism)

Science has not explained it either, but many atheists seem to think that it's not such a deep mystery and that someday it will be easily explained as to what is actually having an experience.

That may or may not be true. But it's certainly not true today.

Today on this particular question Science is faced with just as much mystery as the Eastern Mystics are. They are on equal ground at the moment.

(February 14, 2012 at 3:52 am)Tiberius Wrote:

(February 14, 2012 at 3:41 am)Cosmic Ape Wrote: 1) There is no "knowledge of god"

2) I'm the one saying that there are other god-tales out there and that his question of "do i know god exists" means he hasnt explained which god, presuming upon his god-tale.

1) Debatable. Some people claim knowledge of God, how do you know there isn't? I'd be wary of making an absolute truth claim such as "there is no knowledge of god". I'm an agnostic, I hold that knowledge of God is unknown or unknowable (to me at least).

2) Yes, but generally speaking when a specific god is not mentioned the word applies to the concept of a deity.

This was most epic and best post an Atheist ever made on this forum.

Why are you necroing all these threads man.

(April 23, 2018 at 4:53 pm)Aegon Wrote: Why are you necroing all these threads man.

I dunno!! Going through memory lane.

(February 14, 2012 at 2:26 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Then they look for evidence. As philosophical arguments are not convincing, the person ends up becoming agnostic. Then they develop a distance from God, have no relationship, and it feels natural to want arguments against God to be sound and valid.  The person moves from being agnostic, to that of atheist is the strong sense.

But if we went back to the first step, and the person thought perhaps God gave him knowledge of himself, and that it was properly basic, in the same way knowledge of morality is properly basic, and doesn't need a formal argument or deduction or justification, and it's a warranted belief.  Then the person could have really asked himself the next question, "Do I know God exists?".

I believed in god for nearly 20 years even though there was no relationship. I talked to him all the time but never heard anything back. Even if he does exist, he clearly has no interest in a relationship with me. I never even "felt god" whatever the hell that would feel like. I witnessed other Pentacostal's that admitted that they were taking a feeling of excitement and labelling that "God".

Clearly if god exists he wants to see other followers. I don't believe he does. Either way I have more useful pursuits to devote my time to.

(April 23, 2018 at 5:01 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 23, 2018 at 4:53 pm)Aegon Wrote: Why are you necroing all these threads man.

I dunno!! Going through memory lane.

And starving for attention from us. You want this to always be about you. And you know what, it's fucking annoying me.

(April 23, 2018 at 5:05 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(April 23, 2018 at 5:01 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I dunno!! Going through memory lane.

And starving for attention from us. You want this to always be about you. And you know what, it's fucking annoying me.

Nah, I understand the nothing personal approach, like Mohammad (peace be upon him) was told "for they do not deny you but rather the unjust deny the signs of God".

You guys hate the proofs I offer, nothing against me. Don't worry, I know, you don't like the guy upstairs, not me.

(April 23, 2018 at 5:14 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: [...]like Mohammad (peace be upon him)

lol

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(April 23, 2018 at 5:14 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Don't worry, I know, you don't like the guy upstairs, not me.

So, the other day, (was it yesterday?) I asked why you think it's possible to hate something or someone you don't believe in. How is that possible?

Actually I didn't think about either.

My first questions were "Does this make sense?"

In the end, i came to the conclusion that it did not.

Right, if the meaning and metaphysics can't even be gotten right then you don't even need to get to questions of knowledge.