It is cruel to deny a child any sweets. This is also probably good for them.

It is cruel to slay people, even if they be a murdering rapist. This is also good for society at large.

As you can see... cruelty is not necessarily bad, though it is often in poor taste. I don't call Jazz music evil due to its being in poor taste to me either. Cruelty can be evil... and brutality often is. But it does not have to be so... hence it is not itself evil.

Ok, fair enough. As long as cruelty can be evil in some cases, I think I follow you.

(September 7, 2011 at 5:47 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: It is cruel to slay people, even if they be a murdering rapist. This is also good for society at large.

No. Because the verdict can be wrong. It was in the cases of at least 12% of executed murderers in the USA since 1970. In hindsight they were legally proven to not be killers.

But society had already killed them...

That's manslaughter, according to the same laws.
That society must go to jail for a looong time!

(September 7, 2011 at 6:08 pm)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: No. Because the verdict can be wrong. It was in the cases of at least 10% of executed murderers in the USA since 1970. In hindsight they were legally proven to not be killers.

But society had already killed them...

That's manslaughter, according to the same laws.
That society must go to jail for a looong time!

What if the verdict is in no doubt? all evidence etc present?

(September 7, 2011 at 6:13 pm)Diamond-Deist Wrote:

(September 7, 2011 at 6:08 pm)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: No. Because the verdict can be wrong. It was in the cases of at least 10% of executed murderers in the USA since 1970. In hindsight they were legally proven to not be killers.

But society had already killed them...

That's manslaughter, according to the same laws.
That society must go to jail for a looong time!

What if the verdict is in no doubt? all evidence etc present?

Verdicts convicting people to the electric chair are always "in no doubt".
Yet 1 in 8 prove to be very wrong.

Execution is a punishment that once done, cannot be undone, unfortunate for some, and maybe not a good way to go about things in the light of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Willingham
"The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denied Willingham a writ of habeas corpus a month before his execution. Dr. Gerald Hurst, an Austin scientist and fire investigator, reviewed the case and concluded there was "no evidence of arson", the same conclusion reached by other fire investigators. Hurst's report was sent to governor Rick Perry's office as well as Board of Pardons and Paroles along with Willingham's appeal for clemency. Neither responded to Willingham's appeals. In response to allegations that he allowed the execution of an innocent man, Perry was quoted as stating "he was a wife beater."

"A four-person panel of the Texas Forensic Science Commission investigating evidence of arson presented in the case acknowledged on July 23, 2010, that state and local arson investigators used "flawed science" in determining the blaze had been deliberately set. It also found insufficient evidence to prove that state Deputy Fire Marshal Manuel Vasquez and Corsicana Assistant Fire Chief Douglas Fogg were negligent or guilty of misconduct in their arson work (WTF?). In 2010, the Innocence Project filed a lawsuit against the State of Texas, seeking a judgment of "official oppression""

Rick Perry 2012.

(September 7, 2011 at 6:08 pm)Rokcet Scientist Wrote:

(September 7, 2011 at 5:47 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: It is cruel to slay people, even if they be a murdering rapist. This is also good for society at large.

No. Because the verdict can be wrong. It was in the cases of at least 12% of executed murderers in the USA since 1970. In hindsight they were legally proven to not be killers.

But society had already killed them...

So? The touted 12% of innocents killed were a lot less damaging than the 88% remaining who were

Quote:That's manslaughter, according to the same laws.
That society must go to jail for a looong time!

Laws aren't so because they are moral.

I'd let nine murderers go free if it meant that I didn't have to execute a single innocent man. The thought is unbearable. Justice isn't supposed to be pragmatic, it's supposed to be just. Would be easy to avoid if we didn't feel the need to "kill people back" as if it solved anything.

(September 7, 2011 at 6:17 pm)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: Verdicts convicting people to the electric chair are always "in no doubt".
Yet 1 in 8 prove to be very wrong.

That's quite a high figure, sh*tty police work?

What's your opinion do you think it's ever justified?

We don't have the death penalty where I'm from so it's hard to judge.

I think some crimes are horrendous enough that it warrants it.

Definitely got to side with Rhythm on that. You can't afford to get this sort of thing wrong. I'm against the death penalty for sure.