(June 3, 2018 at 1:33 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't know why Muslims would be worried about contradictions. There's a rule that says stuff written later trumps stuff written earlier when there's a contradiction.

This brings up the problem of who exactly is allowed to write stuff that counts, and when the deadline is, but these are already problems.

Quote:https://quran.com/4/82?translations=

Sahih International

Sura 4, The Quran:

(82) Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.

(June 3, 2018 at 1:38 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Uh huh.  We get the same from Christians.  Wonder why that is?  Reminds me of the argument I presented to Atlas in another thread.  Either the bible is true, which means the Quran isn't, or the bible is not true, and so the Quran in that case also isn't true.  I believe Atlas' complaint was that we don't have the same bible they had in Mohammed's time.  I think the evidence says otherwise.  Hard to imagine the message of Christ's divinity was somehow 'invented' somewhere along the way.

Quote:https://www.biblica.com/resources/bible-...nal-bible/

In order to answer these questions, let’s first decide what we mean by “the original Bible.” That phrase refers to the revelation that came from God to the human authors. They wrote down exactly what was revealed to them, using their own vocabulary and writing style. These messages from God came to some forty different people over the span of 1600 years! The concluding one, the book of Revelation, was given 2000 years ago around 100 AD.

Unfortunately, none of these original manuscripts exist today. Well over 3000 years have passed since Moses first penned the book of Genesis. None of his own writing has survived, but copies have been made down through the centuries.

(June 3, 2018 at 4:06 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(June 3, 2018 at 4:04 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Do you have specific chapters and verses to support that statement?

Yes, I do. But I want when I present it, to be, a one on one debate. You willing to debate this with me?

(June 3, 2018 at 8:58 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(June 3, 2018 at 8:35 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: He literally just said that he didn't actually believe he taught you. Are you trying to seem stupid for some reason?

I judge by contexts, not words and gestures alone.

(June 4, 2018 at 7:11 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(June 3, 2018 at 1:38 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Uh huh.  We get the same from Christians.  Wonder why that is?  Reminds me of the argument I presented to Atlas in another thread.  Either the bible is true, which means the Quran isn't, or the bible is not true, and so the Quran in that case also isn't true.  I believe Atlas' complaint was that we don't have the same bible they had in Mohammed's time.  I think the evidence says otherwise.  Hard to imagine the message of Christ's divinity was somehow 'invented' somewhere along the way.

Quote:https://www.biblica.com/resources/bible-...nal-bible/

In order to answer these questions, let’s first decide what we mean by “the original Bible.” That phrase refers to the revelation that came from God to the human authors. They wrote down exactly what was revealed to them, using their own vocabulary and writing style. These messages from God came to some forty different people over the span of 1600 years! The concluding one, the book of Revelation, was given 2000 years ago around 100 AD.

Unfortunately, none of these original manuscripts exist today. Well over 3000 years have passed since Moses first penned the book of Genesis. None of his own writing has survived, but copies have been made down through the centuries.

The revelation is supposed to be taken from the prophet sent; not from 40 something different authors.
The book kept changing as the years go. The bible of old is not the bible of today.

(June 4, 2018 at 10:06 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(June 4, 2018 at 7:11 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: The revelation is supposed to be taken from the prophet sent; not from 40 something different authors.
The book kept changing as the years go. The bible of old is not the bible of today.

Surah Al-Maeda 68: “Say, “O people of the Book, you have nothing to stand on, unless you uphold the Torah and the Injil and what has been sent down to you from your Lord.” What has been sent down to you from your Lord will certainly make many of the most persistent in rebellion and disbelief. So, do not grieve over the disbelieving people.”


In other words you're saying that God, through Mohammed, was telling the Jews to hold fast to the content of books that no longer existed?  That would make God something of a twat, don't you think?

(June 4, 2018 at 10:40 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(June 4, 2018 at 10:06 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Surah Al-Maeda 68: “Say, “O people of the Book, you have nothing to stand on, unless you uphold the Torah and the Injil and what has been sent down to you from your Lord.” What has been sent down to you from your Lord will certainly make many of the most persistent in rebellion and disbelief. So, do not grieve over the disbelieving people.”


In other words you're saying that God, through Mohammed, was telling the Jews to hold fast to the content of books that no longer existed?  That would make God something of a twat, don't you think?

Yes, he was.

If they reflected upon the original authentic Bible (Injil) and Torah, they'll know the difference between it and between the edited text they hold to be holy

(June 4, 2018 at 10:45 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(June 4, 2018 at 10:40 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Yes, he was.

If they reflected upon the original authentic Bible (Injil) and Torah, they'll know the difference between it and between the edited text they hold to be holy

Your reply is ambiguous.  Are you saying that God is something of a twat, or are you saying that God was telling the Jews to read and abide the content of nonexistent books?

Quote:https://quran.com/5/46?translations=20

Sura 5, The Quran:
( 46 )   And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

( 47 )   And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

( 48 )   And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

( 49 )   And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.

( 50 )   Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].

(June 4, 2018 at 11:26 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: But in other spots in the Quran, it is mentioned that the Bible was revealed to Jesus; not 40 revelation receivers: