I don't think you understand how we can get along just fine without your fucking god.
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"Jesus would rather kill, not marry, gay people" - Franklin Graham
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(July 13, 2018 at 2:16 pm)The Industrial Atheist Wrote:(July 13, 2018 at 1:30 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that you rationalize to morality. You may have to rationalize from moral principles for something which is a little different. But I don't think that you get to those principles through logic. How do you rationalize that it is wrong to kill others. At best you may take a pragmatic approach, but a pragmatic approach, but being pragmatical doesn't necessarily make it moral or immoral. Otherwise your not saying that it is right or wrong, but efficient. As well, the question doesn't even make sense in a subjective view of morality. That is a mis-characterization and I think you know it (feeling that something is "icky"). And I've been down this road before the presence or absence of objective harm, doesn't make something moral or immoral. It doesn't account for objective morality. Or say why it is wrong (only that it causes harm) If you would like to make a thread, we can discuss why you think it does and I think that it does not.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther (July 13, 2018 at 1:37 pm)SteveII Wrote: Second, beliefs cannot be bigoted, only people. No. You're just intolerant to anyone who isn't a White, Anglo Saxon evangelical Christian, such as yourself. Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand.
(July 13, 2018 at 2:36 pm)Joods Wrote:(July 13, 2018 at 1:37 pm)SteveII Wrote: Second, beliefs cannot be bigoted, only people. That's asinine...yet not altogether unexpected from a certain section of AF. Congrats on the civil discourse merit badge. RE: "Jesus would rather kill, not marry, gay people" - Franklin Graham
July 13, 2018 at 3:17 pm
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2018 at 3:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I find the notion of civility in the face of genteel bigotry highly amusing..as A Southern Person. Howsabout we just keep calling assholes assholes, instead? Really bunches up their panties. As others have noted elsewhere..it;s almost as if they realize that they;re in the wrong, lol. They don;t wanna be bigots..but..by god, they just can;t help it.
The bigot in the OP article thinks god righteously shock and awed an entire city on account of the gay...which is probably the only reason he doesn;t have a penis in his mouth right now...generously assuming he doesn;t. It is friday, after all. Others may have other excuses. (July 13, 2018 at 2:35 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:(July 13, 2018 at 2:16 pm)The Industrial Atheist Wrote: Killing others causes objective harm, the pain and suffering of both the person that it killed and their families and loved ones. Two men or two women having sex does not, unless you count a feeling that something is icky as objective harm. In point of fact it does..and even the religious prohibition on teh gay refers to what is presumed to be an objective harm..to that persons soul and salvation..or more broadly to gods favor of an entire nation. If you could demonstrate that sucking a cock would actually lead to a person being tortured for all eternity then you would have the beginnings of a moral case against homosexuality. You can;t ofc, and I say beginnings..because theres still the nagging bit about how the harm is caused by some cocksucker in the sky, rather than being an inherent danger of sucking cock.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: "Jesus would rather kill, not marry, gay people" - Franklin Graham
July 13, 2018 at 3:25 pm
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2018 at 3:47 pm by The Industrial Atheist.)
(July 13, 2018 at 2:35 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:We could add the caveat of unjustified harm. I don't think too many people believe killing in self defense is immoral. But I'm pretty sure we were talking about murder the whole time.(July 13, 2018 at 2:16 pm)The Industrial Atheist Wrote: Killing others causes objective harm, the pain and suffering of both the person that it killed and their families and loved ones. Two men or two women having sex does not, unless you count a feeling that something is icky as objective harm. I'll take morality based off of an idea of preventing unjustified harm to others VS obeying the alleged words of an alleged god that are also often not even consistent with themselves any day. (July 13, 2018 at 2:16 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:(July 13, 2018 at 1:59 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No it does not. His religion is not our official state religion, America does not have a government mandated religion. Yes we are a democratic republic, so the fuck what? We are still NOT a theocracy! Go read the oath of office in the Constitution, "no religious test"..... FYI "So Help me God" IS NOT WRITTEN into that section nor is it mandatory. Excuse me? You not liking my response is your baggage. OUR republic is one LGBT live under, and they are equal to any heterosexual couple. If you support LGBT the right thing to do is to stand up for them, and not the fucking asshole who wants to use government force to put them at the back of the bus. We are not a pure democracy, we are a 3 branch system, legislative, judicial and executive, which are all separate and act as checks on the other two. The voters as well do not have absolute power and can be overruled by a SCOTUS case. We can also remove amendments by a 2/3rds state vote majority. We are an indirect democracy with representative government. And the power of impeachment. There is no social pecking order written into the Constitution mandated by the government.
IMO, Christian belief on homosexuality has nothing to do with deriving some moral reasoning from "gay" factors/consequences/outcomes. I think it is a category error to think so. Instead, it is based on Divine Command Theory: God commanded it and that is a sufficient source of moral obligation. There is nothing left to argue about. Attempting to develop some sort of Christian natural moral argument is unnecessary and unconvincing at best. Atheists that demand an argument and in the absence of one shout "bigot" don't understand this.
(July 13, 2018 at 3:56 pm)SteveII Wrote: IMO, Christian belief on homosexuality has nothing to do with deriving some moral reasoning from "gay" factors/consequences/outcomes. I think it is a category error to think so. Instead, it is based on Divine Command Theory: God commanded it and that is a sufficient source of moral obligation. There is nothing left to argue about. Attempting to develop some sort of Christian natural moral argument is unnecessary and unconvincing at best. Atheists that demand an argument and in the absence of one shout "bigot" don't understand this. Well, the point is that the Divine Command Theory of morality is useless and, frankly, immoral. RE: "Jesus would rather kill, not marry, gay people" - Franklin Graham
July 13, 2018 at 4:22 pm
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2018 at 4:24 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(July 13, 2018 at 3:56 pm)SteveII Wrote: IMO, Christian belief on homosexuality has nothing to do with deriving some moral reasoning from "gay" factors/consequences/outcomes. I think it is a category error to think so. Instead, it is based on Divine Command Theory: God commanded it and that is a sufficient source of moral obligation. There is nothing left to argue about. Attempting to develop some sort of Christian natural moral argument is unnecessary and unconvincing at best. Atheists that demand an argument and in the absence of one shout "bigot" don't understand this. "Magic man said so" isn;t a moral reason, argument, or justification. Its just an order. Many orders are immoral. You may refuse to engage in the discussion, but that doesn;t mean that there isn;t anything to discuss. As I said before..you are comfortable in your bigotry because you imagine your god to be similarly bigoted. Nevertheless, it makes you uneasy to be accurately classified for what you are. A case example of dissonance.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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