(August 28, 2018 at 10:56 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(August 28, 2018 at 10:23 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Sorry i don't buy  Hoffer's views on radicalism and similar methods can be for massively different desired outcomes .

Since I need to clarify that bit about similar methods further, I'll just say this: "Whoever fights monsters, make sure you don't become one yourself." Think back to the upheavals of the 1960s; it's blindingly obvious that the War in Vietnam was unpopular, immoral, and utterly futile. Doesn't necessarily mean that the Weather Underground were actually any better; just less powerful and supporting a position a lot of people supported, and expressing their position by acting not too different from the oppressive imperialists they rightly despised.

And now, we've got groups of people rightly being pissed off at the fact that they've had to walk on eggshells all their lives, and what's the best way many can think of to fix this system that really needs to be fixed? Make everybody else walk on eggshells!

We've got Nazis infiltrating the White House, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the resistance are automatically the good guys.

I'm sorry i must disagree 

Quote:"fights monsters, make sure you don't become one yourself."

Because this assumes their is a bad way to fight monsters that leads to becoming one. If i fight coach roaches invading my house i don't become a coach roach.

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Quote:The Emperor: It is my dream. An Imperium of Man that exists without recourse to gods and the supernatural. A united galaxy with Terra at its heart. [...] These warriors shall be my generals and they will lead my great crusade to the furthest corners of the galaxy. 
Uriah: Didn't you just tell me of the bloody slaughters perpetrated by crusaders? Doesn't that make you no better than the holy men you were telling me about? 
The Emperor: The difference is that I am right. 
Uriah: Spoken like a true autocrat.
— "The Last Church," Warhammer 40,000

From the site linked .Funny thing is though the emperor is right considering in the context of 40k religion is literally the single worst thing humanity can embrace .

---

Quote:That there was a BILL introduced goes to show it's not nearly as unheard of as you think. You said some nitwit said it and the alt right picked it up from there. You were wrong. It's a well-developed concept with arguments for it existing in all levels of society, for lack of a better way of putting it. You seem to want to frame it as some ghost story benny made up, but that's just as disingenuous as his "lazy black guys are going to screw me and my business" fears. Both sides of this argument are being a mite ridiculous.

Too bad it's nothing like the Alt Right fairy tale

I think Shell might have come in late and not read the massively boring lead up pages, is all.

(August 28, 2018 at 11:45 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:"fights monsters, make sure you don't become one yourself."

Because this assumes their is a bad way to fight monsters that leads to becoming one. If i fight coach roaches invading my house i don't become a coach roach.

• Oliver Cromwell fighting the absolutism of King Charles I and essentially turning into an absolute monarch in all but name.
  
• The oppressive and poorly-run ancien regime of Louis XVI being overthrown by the righteously pissed off people, who ended up becoming even more oppressive and poorly-run than their forerunners.
  
• The workers of Imperial Russia getting sick of the Tsar's bullshit and, in their attempts at trying to move beyond it, end up with a leader who has basically become the Tsar, except with a paper-thin veneer of concern for the people. 
  
• Well, many of the successful revolutions in Latin American history are perfect case studies of this happening: the Sandinistas, Fidel Castro, Augusto Pinochet, and Porfirio Diaz being the most obvious examples.
  
• Robert Mugabe took over Zimbabwe when it was still Rhodesia, with a really racist and hostile (more or less) colonial government, and still managed the impressive feat of ending up being even more brutal and dictatorial (and even more racist) than the Rhodesian government he ousted (as unrepentantly brutal as it was) was.
  
• The War on Terror, full stop. America responds to potential terrorist threats by ravaging countries that could potentially be the source of more terrorists, and in the process, young men from these brutalised countries get so fed up at the US' efforts to stop terrorism by fucking them over that they feel they have no choice but to become exactly the sort of monsters they saw the Americans as.
  
• The Algerian War of Independence, where the Algerians got fed up with the French colonists who were brutalising them, torturing them, and not giving a shit about collateral damage, and ended up overthrowing them... and in the process, blowing up shit-tons of innocent people and instituting what amounts to an Islamist dictatorship.
  

Need I go on?

Tizh, I envy your optimism, but I simply cannot share in that optimism. I look at history and see things happening contrary to what your confident idea would expect all the time. I look at the news, and I can see people falling into the same sort of traps their oppressors fell into (for just one small example, look at Rose McGowan's reaction to the Asia Argento affair), and if they keep doing it, I can't expect it to end well.

It's tempting to see the world as being in a black-and-white good vs. evil struggle, and while I can definitely see the black (and at its lightest, it's eigengrau), all the white looks grey to me, and the more ambitious the grey is, the darker a tone it becomes. And the greys with the lightest tones are the ones who are least likely to get anything done in the long run. Why, yes, that does suck.

LOL..by golly guess what came up on my gnews feed today?



Like Father Like Daughter?  Looks like she figures that she might be able to peddle some woo, too.  

Quote:Peterson adopted a common approach to dieting: elimination. She started cutting out foods from her diet, and feeling better each time. She began with gluten, and she kept going, casting out more and more—not just gluten or dairy or soy or  or artificial sweeteners or non-artificial sweeteners, but everything. Until, by December 2017, all that was left was “beef and salt and water,” and, she told me, “all my symptoms went into remission.”
“And you quit taking all your medications?”
“Everything.”
There is so much evidence—abundant, copious evidence acquired over decades of work from scientists around the world—that most people benefit from eating fruits, vegetables, nuts, beans, and seeds. This appears to be largely because fiber in plants is important to the flourishing of the gut microbiome. I ran this by some experts, just to make sure I wasn’t missing anything that might suggest a beef-salt diet is potentially something other than a bad idea. I learned that it was worse than I thought.
“Physiologically, it would just be an immensely bad idea,” Jack Gilbert, the faculty director at the University of Chicago’s Microbiome Center and a professor of surgery, told me during a recent visit to his lab. “A terribly, terribly bad idea.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi...se/567613/

This deserves a soundtrack

(August 29, 2018 at 12:24 am)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(August 28, 2018 at 11:45 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Because this assumes their is a bad way to fight monsters that leads to becoming one. If i fight coach roaches invading my house i don't become a coach roach.

• Oliver Cromwell fighting the absolutism of King Charles I and essentially turning into an absolute monarch in all but name.
  
• The oppressive and poorly-run ancien regime of Louis XVI being overthrown by the righteously pissed off people, who ended up becoming even more oppressive and poorly-run than their forerunners.
  
• The workers of Imperial Russia getting sick of the Tsar's bullshit and, in their attempts at trying to move beyond it, end up with a leader who has basically become the Tsar, except with a paper-thin veneer of concern for the people. 
  
• Well, many of the successful revolutions in Latin American history are perfect case studies of this happening: the Sandinistas, Fidel Castro, Augusto Pinochet, and Porfirio Diaz being the most obvious examples.
  
• Robert Mugabe took over Zimbabwe when it was still Rhodesia, with a really racist and hostile (more or less) colonial government, and still managed the impressive feat of ending up being even more brutal and dictatorial (and even more racist) than the Rhodesian government he ousted (as unrepentantly brutal as it was) was.
  
• The War on Terror, full stop. America responds to potential terrorist threats by ravaging countries that could potentially be the source of more terrorists, and in the process, young men from these brutalised countries get so fed up at the US' efforts to stop terrorism by fucking them over that they feel they have no choice but to become exactly the sort of monsters they saw the Americans as.  
  
• The Algerian War of Independence, where the Algerians got fed up with the French colonists who were brutalising them, torturing them, and not giving a shit about collateral damage, and ended up overthrowing them... and in the process, blowing up shit-tons of innocent people and instituting what amounts to an Islamist dictatorship.
  

Need I go on?

Tizh, I envy your optimism, but I simply cannot share in that optimism. I look at history and see things happening contrary to what your confident idea would expect all the time. I look at the news, and I can see people falling into the same sort of traps their oppressors fell into (for just one small example, look at Rose McGowan's reaction to the Asia Argento affair), and if they keep doing it, I can't expect it to end well.

It's tempting to see the world as being in a black-and-white good vs. evil struggle, and while I can definitely see the black (and at its lightest, it's eigengrau), all the white looks grey to me, and the more ambitious the grey is, the darker a tone it becomes. And the greys with the lightest tones are the ones who are least likely to get anything done in the long run. Why, yes, that does suck.

So i suppose i will have to be optimistic for us both 

(August 28, 2018 at 11:57 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I think Shell might have come in late and not read the massively boring lead up pages, is all.

I addressed a single sentence. I don’t need your boring, hackneyed alt right far left back and forth. Shit is never going anywhere.

Another display of the effectiveness of narrative framing.  

Political correctness and social justice aren't far left, they're core issues of the left.  Foundational, even - in that they are inextricable from notions of class. That they're framed as being far left by the white supremacist infected mainstream right is a bid to scare the shit out of anxious people with ghost stories and peel away leftists and even more specifically centrists from supporting those initiatives.  There's nothing particularly radical in telling folks not to blurt out ethnic slurs on teevee, that this would have consequences..... or to seek a greater equality in a society that attempts to define itself as a nation of equals. As I've commented on many times..if you ask a person their opinion of either issue as they are..rather than as the right has framed them in opposition.....you can expect to find that the same person sees them as unobjectionable, unremarkable, and almost trivially right minded - downright uncontroversial. OFC we want equality, ofc there should be (and are) consequences for racist speech.

There is, otoh, something very radical in the white victimization routine.

I do agree that these discussions are generally fruitless, talking a committed racist out of being a racist is..for the most part, impossible. Racists depend on that frustration and resilience. In the case of people who aren't committed racists (like Benny, I assume), but who have..for a variety of reasons and through a variety of channels, picked up racist talking points (like some sort of terrible osmosis, lol) I like to hold out hope and put in the time. If you can demonstrate the origins of the narrative and it's factual inadequacy*, it's at least conceivable that a person might step back and say "fuck, not gonna fall for that shit again".

I know I did. : shrugs :

*and if or when that fails, teasing them, appealing to any sense they have of how ridiculous and amusing their objections might be. Gotta come at it from all sides, shit's really well dug-in at this point. Any and all of this can fail, can backfire, ofc, but being silent in the face of a creeping ethnostate is to be complicit in it's formation. It's doing the racists work for them...and they know it, that's the goal of normalization.

(August 29, 2018 at 7:41 am)Khemikal Wrote: There is, otoh, something very radical in the white victimization routine.

The only thing radical about it is how you paint it.

I had a problem with black people pulling the black card.  You started with this truly impressive yarn you are weaving where people who don't want to have to deal with political bullshit in mundane conversations are all puppets of the alt-right script machine, that they are casting a narrative of victimization and white genocide.

But here's the thing.  I can see the hysteria with which YOU, a self-professed member of the PC left, are spinning this big yarn of white conspiracy.  I then have to ask myself-- is the average member of the PC left going to be equally hysterical, more so, or less so?

Then we go back to the issue of language control.  The idea that people like you should ever manage to legislate your narrative is quite chilling to me, because legislating bullshit cannot represent a good to a society based on the idea of liberaty.

(August 29, 2018 at 7:52 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(August 29, 2018 at 7:41 am)Khemikal Wrote: There is, otoh, something very radical in the white victimization routine.

The only thing radical about it is how you paint it.

If you say so, I guess.  

Quote:I had a problem with black people pulling the black card.  You started with this truly impressive yarn you are weaving where people who don't want to have to deal with political bullshit in mundane conversations are all puppets of the alt-right script machine, that they are casting a narrative of victimization and white genocide.

You, Benny,...you..have been duped by the alt right.  You keep demonstrating that with rants and examples that turn out to be alt right fantasies.  There are plenty of lilly white faces in the world not suffering from white anxiety.

Quote:But here's the thing.  I can see the hysteria with which YOU, a self-professed member of the PC left, are spinning this big yarn of white conspiracy.  I then have to ask myself-- is the average member of the PC left going to be equally hysterical, more so, or less so?

There's no white conspiracy, lol, there's a white supremacist push to rebrand themselves and scoop up allies..and, failing that, reduce intra-set support between white supremacy opposed ideologies.  

Quote:Then we go back to the issue of language control.  The idea that people like you should ever manage to legislate your narrative is quite chilling to me, because legislating bullshit cannot represent a good to a society based on the idea of liberaty.

My narrative that there should be consequences for racist speech and a dedicated effort to reduce institutional and societal inequality and injustice?  Yeah, just terrifying.  Some People™ wake up at night shivering in their bleached white sheets on account of it, lol.