(September 9, 2018 at 2:46 am)Khemikal Wrote: What, specifically..is bullshit about that?  That academia has come done resoundingly against scientific racism, that scientific racism persists in spite of that at the popular level as a political or ideological lever, or that scientific racism is innacurate?  

Stop strawmanning "scientific racism." Facts have been presented. You've completely dodged them, and presented "facts" of your own which you've refused to support. Your ability to argue your points is right in there with the shittiest-minded Christians we've seen, and much for the same reason.

You can keep spinning your narrative, and I'll keep on telling you that it's shitty argumentation. I doubt after like 70 pages that you'll ever actually have a point worth having, or one which you will actual support with anything more than hot air. But I'm gonna keep calling you out.

Quote:As I've noted many times in thread, none of the fears produced by that anxiety have come to pass....but..like the return of christ....those afflicted are still waiting, anyday now.

I get that pc and sj annoy you..but is that actually a problem?  Or, rather, is it anyone else's problem?

It's everyone else's problem. You are "normalizing" the substitution of rational argument and careful presentation of facts with rhetorical bullshit. If that kind of intellectual laziness is accepted as argumentation, then you've succeeded in making all social discussions meme wars. If that's really your intent, then go ahead-- cat meme me, bro. You've really got nothing else to say.

Why would it be everyone else's problem? Related to that question, why is it, do you think.... that the nonspecific and specific fears of anti-pc and anti-sj advocates of the past 50 years have yet to come to pass? Still related, why do those complaints and fears persist, in your opinion, in the face of their seeming lack of inevitability or in lack of their actuality?

Since you brought up memes, do you think that we might be able to explain any of the above by reference to them..and whose memes are they?

(September 9, 2018 at 4:22 am)Khemikal Wrote: Why would it be everyone else's problem?  Related to that question, why is it, do you think.... that the nonspecific and specific fears of anti-pc and anti-sj advocates of the past 50 years have yet to come to pass?  Still related, why do those complaints and fears persist, in your opinion, in the face of their seeming lack of inevitability or in lack of their actuality?

What you are doing IS the fear, dude.  Right here, right now, it's happening-- mindless rhetoric as an answer to fact, coupled with a groundless and narcissistic conviction of the nobility of doing it. This, from the start, has been what the thread has been about.

Look in the mirror.  There's no more waiting to do.  The existence of people who think like you do, and argue like you do, IS the problem-- for anyone who cares about reality, or about actually solving problems rather than using them as a springboard for self-gratification.

In effect, you think I'm scaring you into white supremacy and paranoid fears about a coming marxistgeddon?

(September 9, 2018 at 4:22 am)Khemikal Wrote: Since you brought up memes, do you think that we might be able to explain any of the above by reference to them..and whose memes are they?

Stop with the questions, Socrates. If you have a point, make it. Then back it up. If you won't do that, then shut up.

I think it might be more useful for you to come up with the answers..since we've seen that nothing I say or link will dissuade you.   That, rather than being persuasive, my saying things makes you fearful for reality itself.

(September 9, 2018 at 4:33 am)Khemikal Wrote: In effect, you think I'm scaring you into white supremacy and paranoid fears about a coming marxistgeddon?

Nope.  I think you are using just about every logical fallacy under the sun to avoid a sincere discussion about an important social issue.  I'm just waiting for you to tell me not to think so much, because only through faith  can I know the Truth™.

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(September 9, 2018 at 4:36 am)Khemikal Wrote: I think it might be more useful for you to come up with the answers..since we've seen that nothing I say or link will dissuade you.   That, rather than being persuasive, my saying things makes you fearful for reality itself.

Oh you can persuade me, all right-- by having a point, and backing it up with facts that support it.  So far, you haven't done that.  I'll keep waiting for it, though. *holds breath*

And I'm not fearful for reality. Reality is what it is. However, reality matters, because without acknowledging it, it will be difficult to improve our positions. And if life isn't an attempt to constantly improve our positions, then what is it?

The normalization of white supremacy through the narrative of white victimhood and conservative opposition to imaginary marxists -is- an important social issue.  As is the persistence of scientific racism. It's the justifying rationalization for a growing chunk of american policy and institutions.

People who lug that baggage out of some sense that doing so is moderate, or that they are just looking at the facts, or that to do so is to defend free speech...aren't exactly doing themselves, the world, or that issue any great service.

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This, to put it bluntly, is the danger of cult-like figures such as peterson or murray.  The problem with society today is that you cant beat a crazy bitch.  Dominance is natural.  Black people are in a shitty position because they are inferior.  Immigrants are making america dumber. If you say racist shit people will call you a racist and you might even lose your job, that's super unfair and The Real Racism™.

Any attempt to change the status quo, or even point it out.... is instantly decried as the first harbinger of the apocalypse..and to a person with a traditionalist bent(in a place where tradition has been synonymous with racism and inequality, no less), or to a person who has been injected with the fear that they will one day lose some privilege and become the oppressed...I suppose it is.

Now, Murray (to his credit) has realized that he needed to scrub his position a little more thoroughly..moving on from racism to overt class. Poor people are poor because they are inferior. Maybe they shouldn't be having babies. If Peterson wants to have his own second act, he'll have to do much the same.

(September 9, 2018 at 4:43 am)Khemikal Wrote: The normalization of white supremacy through the narrative of white victimhood and conservative opposition to imaginary marxists -is- an important social issue.  As is the persistence of scientific racism.  It's the justifying rationalization for a growing chunk of american policy and institutions.  

That's a lot of big and scary words, Khemikal, but they are not in response to anything I said-- or Harris, or Peterson, or anyone else. You pump up this big narrative, and you rant and rave and thump your chest, but what you don't do is argue effectively.

There are two issues here:
1) Finding the facts
2) The way they are applied

(1) Facts cannot be racist. Even if someone is trying to find facts that can be applied against a demographic group (in this case, black people), it is the application which is racist. If the facts are grim, then you roll up your sleeves and deal with them. If they are positive, then you shout them from the rooftop. Either way-- truth is truth, and isn't contingent on membership to any particular group or adherence to any particular dogma.

The real problem is (2). You've seen real hardcore racism in the States, and you know from experience that white racists will collect facts in order to undermine attempts to establish income (or other) equality, or to justify making certain demographics 2nd-class citizens. Being essentially a decent human being, you cannot stand by while this happens. Good.

But the problem is that in conflating (1) and (2) into an over-arching narrative, you make yourself an enemy to the truth. If anyone intends to do good, and wants a clear picture of the real causal factors that might serve as a barrier to doing good, they anyway will fall into the same nominalization by default-- those who are promoting "scientific racism," willingly or unwillingly bolstering the position of those with real malice.

You can think of me as a slimy piece of shit if you want, but since I introduced the idea of IQ, I've been attempting to use the facts AGAINST the white supremacist agenda. I've been trying to figure out how to get IQ scores up, how to relieve the underlying poverty by getting people out of prison, and so on.

This, in the end, is how the left must win-- not by demonizing or shouting down the alt-right-- but by having a superior grasp of the facts, and having a superior plan of action for dealing with them. You can keep me as your enemy if you want-- and you seem pretty determined to do so, given the way you've spoken to me throughout this thread. But there are a heck of a lot of people like me who share your sentiments but find your methods abhorrent-- do you really think that hysterical accusations and name-calling are going to bring people around to your position?

That's not very realistic, dude.

Yes, there are a heck of alot of people like you, who think that the contents of the racist ideologies they're wittingly or unwittingly spreading are facts.  Who think that..somehow, by opposing those who advocate for social justice, the left will "win".

Again, that's the problem. It helps to move the overton window by successive rounds of centering, simultaneously weakening core leftist ideology and their ability to oppose the racism and bigotry that have created underclasses and intraclass division.

Let me ask you this, if having a superior grasp of facts will do anything to solve this problem..then whenceforth cometh racists? My abhorrent method, is to laugh at racists and make jokes at their expense. It might occur to you, if you looked deeply enough into it, that their fears of white victimization are based on a deep need for inclusion. They don't want to feel like they're the odd man out, especially if theyre being pushed out of respectable and privileged society.

Which they are, or..at..least....were. Obviously, not everyone thinks this is a good way to deal with dummies...but I guess I'm just not one of those leftists, the good ones, lol.

I appreciate that you think you've been trying to argue against the white supremacist agenda...but confirming their mistaken narrative is unlikely to achieve that effect. In truth, I think you've been trying to convince yourself that you're not a racist. It's an argument that you're having with yourself, not me. One moment of critical self awareness would probably be enough to settle it. The simple realization that you've been completely fucking had by an ideology that you can't stand. I know, I know, unpossibru, Bennyboy getting hoodwinked? No matter what every link you've been given might say, you know that couldn't have happened. In fact..the more I mention it or provide links to that effect...the more you're convinced it's utter bullshit. So much for the effect of a superior grasp on facts, huh?

To quote murray regarding Losing Ground

Quote:A huge number of well-meaning whites fear that they are closet racists, and this book tells them they are not. It's going to make them feel better about things they already think but do not know how to say.

Ironic, no?