(September 10, 2018 at 9:54 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: It could be a case of carrot and stick here; a vocal minority of left-wing activists make the rest look like total idiots, and then, people becoming disillusioned with the left come across white supremacists talking about how they're the real oppressed ones, and how the left is powerful enough to destroy their free speech and, lacking the sort of critical apparatus necessary to properly process it and think "they're talking shit. I may be losing faith in the left's power to actually effect the sort of change we need, but there's no way this is a viable alternative" like an intelligent person would, buy into it.

I'm not sure why opposition to the screechy left is taken as approval of the nutjob right. You can dislike one without supporting the other, you know.

(September 10, 2018 at 10:44 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 10, 2018 at 9:54 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: It could be a case of carrot and stick here; a vocal minority of left-wing activists make the rest look like total idiots, and then, people becoming disillusioned with the left come across white supremacists talking about how they're the real oppressed ones, and how the left is powerful enough to destroy their free speech and, lacking the sort of critical apparatus necessary to properly process it and think "they're talking shit. I may be losing faith in the left's power to actually effect the sort of change we need, but there's no way this is a viable alternative" like an intelligent person would, buy into it.

I'm not sure why opposition to the screechy left is taken as approval of the nutjob right. You can dislike one without supporting the other, you know.

A position I share, but, honestly, throughout the past 82 pages of this thread, you've shown you're edging towards the latter.

(September 10, 2018 at 11:00 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(September 10, 2018 at 10:44 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I'm not sure why opposition to the screechy left is taken as approval of the nutjob right.  You can dislike one without supporting the other, you know.

A position I share, but, honestly, throughout the past 82 pages of this thread, you've shown you're edging towards the latter.

I can see that you have that perception.  Is it because I'm broaching taboo subjects, or is it because of the policies which I've extrapolated from them?  I'm fairly certain that my policy positions fall well on the left side of the spectrum.

Is it sufficient that I act in accordance with the left to establish myself as left, or is it necessary also think and feel in particular ways?  And if I don't. . . should I pretend?

I choose not to.  I will examine whatever positions seem right to me.  It seems right to me that the black population in the States is in dire condition, and that it's not exclusively due to racist oppression.  It's TRACED ultimately to slavery, for sure, but unless you want to completely disregard the agency of black people to act on their own behalf or to express their own values in their behavior, then it's not only the views of white supremacists that need to be cleaned up.

I would love, absolutely love, to hear what Khemikal's wife thinks of all this.  I'm currently under the impression that the PC Left are almost entirely white, and probably mostly men.  I wish I had access to more black friends who I could speak freely with about this kind of stuff.

(September 11, 2018 at 12:49 am)bennyboy Wrote: I would love, absolutely love, to hear what Khemikal's wife thinks of all this.  I'm currently under the impression that the PC Left are almost entirely white, and probably mostly men.  I wish I had access to more black friends who I could speak freely with about this kind of stuff.

What about those black employees you've mentioned elsewhere?

(September 11, 2018 at 1:09 am)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(September 11, 2018 at 12:49 am)bennyboy Wrote: I would love, absolutely love, to hear what Khemikal's wife thinks of all this.  I'm currently under the impression that the PC Left are almost entirely white, and probably mostly men.  I wish I had access to more black friends who I could speak freely with about this kind of stuff.

What about those black employees you've mentioned elsewhere?

Well, as you know they played the race card at times I considered inappropriate.  But we did have some discussions about it, too, and fairly interesting ones.  For example, while the ended up in the US, they were originally from Nigeria.  They felt that they weren't really accepted into American black culture-- there was some kind of national identity and history that went into it, too.

Plus, the sisters were private school girls, and probably their parents were richer than mine, so their angle on it probably wouldn't be that typical.  I'm not sure that black people overall have anywhere near as uniform a position as the PC left do, though.

(September 11, 2018 at 12:49 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 10, 2018 at 11:00 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: A position I share, but, honestly, throughout the past 82 pages of this thread, you've shown you're edging towards the latter.

I can see that you have that perception.  Is it because I'm broaching taboo subjects, or is it because of the policies which I've extrapolated from them?  I'm fairly certain that my policy positions fall well on the left side of the spectrum.

The idea that you are just broaching taboo topics is...in point of fact, a huge part of the normalizing script, as the many links you've been given on the subject go to great lengths to point out and debunk.  

Quote:Is it sufficient that I act in accordance with the left to establish myself as left, or is it necessary also think and feel in particular ways?  And if I don't. . . should I pretend?

The disaffected left has become a prime target for this narrative, notably, through popular skeptic podcasts which uncritically gave a voice to the rebranding of an old mistake as they competed with each other for hits and subs....and even more specifically, by ingratiating itself to people who have a skewed idea of free speech and it's status as imperiled.   That's category number one.  The abrogation of rights.  

It is possible for a person to affirm the normalizing language of white supremacy without being an out and out white supremacist.
Most of the people who do so do not identify as alt right.
A growing number of the people who do so come from the left.  

Some unknown portion abhor racists and racist ideology and..because of this very fact..rankle at the suggestion that they might have come down with a bad case of white anxiety -because they're not racists, godamnit!......  

Quote:I choose not to.  I will examine whatever positions seem right to me.  It seems right to me that the black population in the States is in dire condition, and that it's not exclusively due to racist oppression.  It's TRACED ultimately to slavery, for sure, but unless you want to completely disregard the agency of black people to act on their own behalf or to express their own values in their behavior, then it's not only the views of white supremacists that need to be cleaned up.

There are many reasons for the dire condition of everyone in the lower socioeconomic rungs of the US...but institutional and societal racism (not in some distant slaving past - today) is a significant factor for the african american population in addition to all of that.  Minimizing this is a pointless endeavor, and will mark you out as someone who's swallowed the koolaid on that issue.  

-Accurately- mark you out.  While you may ultimately be mistaken for a racist, no one is mistaken in the fact that you've determined that fantasies of white victimization by the pc and sj and the articles of scientific racism are The Hard Truth™. 

After all..you're just broaching taboo topics with facts, reality is under attack by the pc left..right? Right......? Well, wrong, but you've made it clear that you believe as much regardless of whether you identify as a racist or alt right. Which is the bog standard for people fully aligned with the positions of the alt right and racists. The truly ironic thing in this, is that both the pc left and the alt right recognize this place that you're at. The only people who ever seem to be completely blindsided by it, are those residing within the demographic.

Quote:I would love, absolutely love, to hear what Khemikal's wife thinks of all this.  I'm currently under the impression that the PC Left are almost entirely white, and probably mostly men.  I wish I had access to more black friends who I could speak freely with about this kind of stuff.

She has far less patience for the alt lite and alt right than I do.  It took her a long time to acclimate to the south....and she doesn't extend the same benefit of the doubt that I do on account of being more familiar with how effortlessly racists and racist ideology moves through otherwise decent people. She's certainly not impressed with Peterson and his acolytes, while we're on the subject of my saintly wife, lol.

(September 11, 2018 at 6:58 am)Khemikal Wrote: It is possible for a person to affirm the normalizing language of white supremacy without being an out and out white supremacist.
Most of the people who do so do not identify as alt right.
A growing number of the people who do so come from the left.  

"Normalizing language of white supremacy." That's quite the mantra you have there.

Have you considered the possibility that you are doing real harm when you struggle so hard to alienate anyone who doesn't want to stand under your tiny little dogmatic umbrella? You take words that people in the liberal left find abhorrent, and then unless they support the same divisive (and ineffective) politics you espouse, you will attempt to demonize them using those words.

If you were trying to find a way to drive much of the left toward the center or beyond, consistently arguing like a dick is a great way to do it. Look at how the politics in pretty much the whole world is swinging right. Why do you think that is? Are people just turning into assholes for no reason? Or could it be that the ridiculous extremes of the PC Left-- the fucking nonsense with the zes and the zers, for example, and the constant name-calling and accusations of oppression while being unwilling to consider constructive action-- could it be that people don't WANT to stand around sniffing your farts?

Consider this, and understand it. It's not the siren's call of some dormant racism that is pulling people toward the right. It's that people like you make having any kind of rational disussion, or finding any kind of common ground to build on, completely impossible, and that it is your express intent to do so.

Good luck with that.

(September 11, 2018 at 5:42 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 11, 2018 at 6:58 am)Khemikal Wrote: It is possible for a person to affirm the normalizing language of white supremacy without being an out and out white supremacist.
Most of the people who do so do not identify as alt right.
A growing number of the people who do so come from the left.  

"Normalizing language of white supremacy."  That's quite the mantra you have there.

It's the name of an identifiable set of claims with a known source, known history, and a known demographic corrollary.  Read the links.  It's just science, you know, facts. 

Or are you too much of a pc leftist cuck to handle the Hard Truth™?  

Quote:Have you considered the possibility that you are doing real harm when you struggle so hard to alienate anyone who doesn't want to stand under your tiny little dogmatic umbrella?  You take words that people in the liberal left find abhorrent, and then unless they support the same divisive (and ineffective) politics you espouse, you will attempt to demonize them.

That you're using the language means you're already alienated - and it strongly suggests that white supremacists have alienated you...regardless of whether you knew it was happening or not.  Frankly...it helps if you don't.  

Quote:If you were trying to find a way to drive much of the left toward the center or beyond, consistently arguing like a dick is a great way to do it.  Look at how the politics in pretty much the whole world is swinging right.  Why do you think that is?  Are people just turning into assholes for no reason?  Or could it be that the ridiculous extremes of the PC Left-- the fucking nonsense with the zes and the zers, for example, and the constant name-calling and accusations of oppression while being unwilling to consider constructive action-- could it be that people don't WANT to stand around sniffing your farts?

Are facts and data suddenly leftist?  

Quote:Consider this, and understand it.  It's not the siren's call of some dormant racism that is pulling people toward the right.  It's that people like you make having any kind of rational disussion, or finding any kind of common ground to build on, completely impossible, and that it is your express intent to do so.

Good luck with that.

Or maybe it's the racists, who've successfully re-branded racism in a way that appeals to you..and even fed you that very line?  50/50

You're -still- trying to defend yourself against the notion that you're a racist..and it's still an argument that you're only having with yourself. You'll also find this conversational dynamic in the links you've been given.

(September 11, 2018 at 5:46 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(September 11, 2018 at 5:42 pm)bennyboy Wrote: "Normalizing language of white supremacy."  That's quite the mantra you have there.

It's the name of an identifiable set of claims with a known source, known history, and a known demographic corrollary.  Read the links.  It's just science, you know, facts. 

Or are you too much of a pc leftist cuck to handle the Hard Truth™?  

The problem is that you think an honest discussion of issues of race is "normalizing language of white supremacy."

If honest discussion is that, then I'll do that. You can brand me however you want.

---

(September 11, 2018 at 5:46 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Or maybe it's the racists, who've successfully re-branded racism in a way that appeals to you..and even fed you that very line?  50/50

You're -still- trying to defend yourself against the notion that you're a racist..and it's still an argument that you're only having with yourself.  You'll also find this conversational dynamic in the links you've been given.

I've never tried to defend myself against "the notion that you're a racist," and you know that. It depends what you mean by the word. If you think I see differences among races, and that's racist, then that is correct: I think Asian people are smart, and black people are athletic. If you think that the term involves justification of malice, as an obstacle to providing opportunity, then I think the proposals I've made (and you haven't bothered to make) show that not to be the case.

You can keep deputizing yourself to be the thought police if you want, and I'm not even disputing your positions on racism, especially in the southern states. But I have to say that the way you have argued in this thread is very unlikely to bring any positive result-- if you really care about race issues, you should want to act in a way that will actually improve the facts.

Case in point-- I keep making suggestions about how things might be improved. You keep shooting my proposals down, without suggesting alternatives, and saying "Anyway. . . that won't work because racism." I suggested health and welfare programs as a partial solution to the IQ problem, and you said, "Yeah, but anyway networking."

Okay, so let's say that horrible racists like me are oppressing the black population, who are nobly struggling (and not fucking things up at all) for a fair shake. Fine. . . you have to put them in a position where resistance is not an option. The constitution of the US accords citizens the right to arm themselves and to stand against tyranny. Surely, the deliberate control of a large population of impoverished people by a few rich assholes constitutes tyranny. So pick up a gun, and get yourself heard.

See, if you used all this big language, and you were actually willing to do something about it, then I'd respect you infinitely more than I do right now. If you were writing letters to congress, holding a picket sign, beating the shit out of anyone with a confederate flag on their truck-- literally anything.

That's the conversation I'D like to have-- not deciding who's morally superior or inferior and shouting each other down, but looking at any of the problems, and saying "How might this problem be minimized?"

(September 11, 2018 at 6:51 pm)bennyboy Wrote: The problem is that you think an honest discussion of issues of race is "normalizing language of white supremacy."

If honest discussion is that, then I'll do that.  You can brand me however you want.

I don't..but you haven't been having one of those, so why would it be relevant?  "Just being honest" - also..in the links...

Quote:I've never tried to defend myself against "the notion that you're a racist," and you know that.  It depends what you mean by the word.  If you think I see differences among races, and that's racist, then that is correct: I think Asian people are smart, and black people are athletic.  If you think that the term involves justification of malice, as an obstacle to providing opportunity, then I think the proposals I've made (and you haven't bothered to make) show that not to be the case.

What you mean by the word...also...in the links.....

Quote:You can keep deputizing yourself to be the thought police if you want, and I'm not even disputing your positions on racism, especially in the southern states.  But I have to say that the way you have argued in this thread is very unlikely to bring any positive result-- if you really care about race issues, you should want to act in a way that will actually improve the facts.

Thought police complaining...also.......in...the links.

Quote:Case in point-- I keep making suggestions about how things might be improved.  You keep shooting my proposals down, without suggesting alternatives, and saying "Anyway. . . that won't work because racism."  I suggested health and welfare programs as a partial solution to the IQ problem, and you said, "Yeah, but anyway networking."

You mean, an honest conversation about race and racism?  Yeah..I've been trying to have one, lol.  

Quote:Okay, so let's say that horrible racists like me are oppressing the black population, who are nobly struggling (and not fucking things up at all) for a fair shake.  Fine. . . you have to put them in a position where resistance is not an option.  The constitution of the US accords citizens the right to arm themselves and to stand against tyranny.  Surely, the deliberate control of a large population of impoverished people by a few rich assholes constitutes tyranny.  So pick up a gun, and get yourself heard.

The racist golem.  Guess what, also in the links. Fun fact, as an aside..the us constitution doesn't actually afford anyone that right. That was something we talked about when we wanted to do some shooting, not when we got around to setting laws as the party in power. Though I will say that this is one re-imagining of the tyranny being referenced that I actually do fuck with..and why I'm not a good leftist out to get all the guns.

Quote:See, if you used all this big language, and you were actually willing to do something about it, then I'd respect you infinitely more than I do right now.  If you were writing letters to congress, holding a picket sign, beating the shit out of anyone with a confederate flag on their truck-- literally anything.

That's the conversation I'D like to have-- not deciding who's morally superior or inferior and shouting each other down, but looking at any of the problems, and saying "How might this problem be minimized?"

Morality power plays and righteousness points.  Also...meh, fuck it, you already know by now.

Or you would...had you read the links you've been given.