If you ever had a discussion with a Wahhabi/Sunni/Shiite, please follow these rules to defeat him using Islam itself as a reference:

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1-Define the basic ground for your argument: 

 The basic grounds for any successful debates with a Wahhabi is very simple. Use the Quran only and don't allow the Wahhabi/Sunni/Shiite resort to the Hadith.

 Your evidence is this verse from the Quran:

Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:

Sahih International

(114) [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book to you explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubter

Quote:Surah 6, The Quran:

Sahih International

(106) Follow, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you from your Lord - there is no deity except Him - and turn away from those who associate others with Allah .

When your basic ground is explicitly displayed, the Wahhabi/Sunni/Shiite will be heavily shocked because you just took away his whole belief. Never allow him to use the Hadith.

2-Bring up the victims and fatalities that fell due to following the Hadith:
 Mention the occupation of Spain, the defeat at France, the Crusaders' invasion of Jerusalem, the defeat in WW1, the Saudi regime's terrorism, the Irani regime's terrorism.

And tell him the truth: that the common thing between all of these was the belief in the Hadith.

3-Show him that Sunni Islam and Shiite Islam are perfect religions for any dictator.
 For example, this is a famous Hadith used so widely by the Saudi regime to brutalize any opposition:

Quote:Chapter : Instruction to stick to the main body of the Muslims in the time of trials and warning against those inviting people to disbelief.

It his been narrated through a different chain of transmitters, on the authority of Hudhaifa b. al-Yaman who said: Messenger of Allah, no doubt, we had an evil time (i.e. the days of Jahiliyya or ignorance) and God brought us a good time (i.e. Islamic period) through which we are now living Will there be a bad time after this good time? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Yes. I said: Will there be a good time after this bad time? He said: Yes. I said: Will there be a bad time after good time? He said: Yes. I said: How? Whereupon he said: There will be leaders who will not be led by my guidance and who will not adopt my ways? There will be among them men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of human beings. I said: What should I do. Messenger of Allah, if I (happen) to live in that time? He replied: You will listen to the Amir and carry out his orders; even if your back is flogged and your wealth is snatched, you should listen and obey.

Book 020, Hadith Number 4555.

For Shiites:

Quote:Prophet Mohammed said: Whoever obeys 'Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys 'Ali, disobeys me, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah"

[Kanz ul Ummal, hadith numbers 32973]

Try applying these rules while debating with a squirrel and see how it turns out... most of our attempts at discussing religion with a religious person usually feel exactly like that.

(September 12, 2018 at 8:59 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Try applying these rules while debating with a squirrel and see how it turns out... most of our attempts at discussing religion with a religious person usually feel exactly like that.

The same applies to you; too.
I see the design of life as a flawless puzzle made and created by an outside force -God-. So technically I think the squirrel itself knows better, at least it accepts nature as it is.

No Sunni or Shiite is going to accept ignoring the hadith as a ground rule, so this advice is pointless. As for the rest, just as you do, they simply point their fingers elsewhere. Do you not learn anything from your own behavior?

@Atlas
You think that because your magic book says so.  How is that different from sunni or shia thinking whatever silly thing they do because their magic books say so?

(September 12, 2018 at 9:57 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: No Sunni or Shiite is going to accept ignoring the hadith as a ground rule, so this advice is pointless.  As for the rest, just as you do, they simply point their fingers elsewhere.  Do you not learn anything from your own behavior?

Here's the whole point: the Hadith books were never held as a revelation from God; rather they are "the recording of Mohammed's sayings after more than a century after his death".

All Muslims believe 100% that the Quran is the word of God, it's the special case. But the Hadith is not.
A person who wants to resort to Hadiths, is a person who is resorting to man's word, with the admission of all Muslims.

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(September 12, 2018 at 9:58 am)Khemikal Wrote: @Atlas
You think that because your magic book says so.  How is that different from sunni or shia thinking whatever silly thing they do because their magic books say so?

They also believe 100% in the Quran. The Quran orders the followers of the faith to explicitly follow the word of God.
Is the Hadith the word of God, or the narrations that might be correct or false?

(September 12, 2018 at 3:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(September 12, 2018 at 9:57 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: No Sunni or Shiite is going to accept ignoring the hadith as a ground rule, so this advice is pointless.  As for the rest, just as you do, they simply point their fingers elsewhere.  Do you not learn anything from your own behavior?

Here's the whole point: the Hadith books were never held as a revelation from God; rather they are "the recording of Mohammed's sayings after more than a century after his death".

All Muslims believe 100% that the Quran is the word of God, it's the special case. But the Hadith is not.
A person who wants to resort to Hadiths, is a person who is resorting to man's word, with the admission of all Muslims.

Professional tip: the Quran isn't from God either. (And for what it's worth, the Quran states that Mohammed's conduct is an example of right belief, so indirectly it does sanction the hadith.)

Is this that sock again? 10th time this week.

Oh wait nvm, carry on.

(September 12, 2018 at 3:57 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

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(September 12, 2018 at 9:58 am)Khemikal Wrote: @Atlas
You think that because your magic book says so.  How is that different from sunni or shia thinking whatever silly thing they do because their magic books say so?

They also believe 100% in the Quran.

So?

Quote:The Quran orders the followers of the faith to explicitly follow the word of God.

It orders many things.

Quote:Is the Hadith the word of God, or the narrations that might be correct or false?

Is the quran the word of god, or the narrations that might be correct or false?

(September 12, 2018 at 8:59 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Try applying these rules while debating with a squirrel and see how it turns out... most of our attempts at discussing religion with a religious person usually feel exactly like that.

But squirrels tend to be smarter.