(March 26, 2019 at 11:08 pm)snowtracks Wrote:

(March 25, 2019 at 9:17 am)tackattack Wrote: If it is impossible for you to sin how can you have free will?

God can’t violate his nature. Spoken to Moses in the 5 epic words in which He described himself: Moses asked who should I say has sent me?  God answered, “Moses: I AM WHO I AM”. In other words, God is defined by his nature. God can’t do sin, accept sin, overlook sin.
The sin nature is universal in humanity.  All of us have a sinful nature affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical. The remedy is to partake in the divine nature offered to everyone. This new nature coexists with the old nature until physical death when the old nature becomes totally non-existent for those who accept the remedy*, those who don't will continue to have their one and only sinful nature eternally which is the referred to as the second death. 

By partaking in the divine nature, one can have free will without the possibility of sin; the new creation will be sin-free.

*Everyone or anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord by embracing the life, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus with confident trust and firm persuasion will receive salvation (new nature, partake in the divine nature).

FSM can’t violate Its nature. Spoken to Maccarone in the 5 epic words in which FSM described Itself: Maccarone asked who should I say has sent me?  FSM answered, “Maccarone: I AM WHO I AM”.
FSM can’t do sin, Will accept some sin, overlook sin given a good bribe.
The sin nature is universal in humanity.  All of us have a semi sinful nature affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is Pastafarical. The remedy is to not be a total dick. This new nature coexists with the old nature until physical death after which we meet judgment.

Bless. RAmen

(March 27, 2019 at 12:06 am)Nay_Sayer Wrote:

(March 26, 2019 at 11:08 pm)snowtracks Wrote: God can’t violate his nature. Spoken to Moses in the 5 epic words in which He described himself: Moses asked who should I say has sent me?  God answered, “Moses: I AM WHO I AM”. In other words, God is defined by his nature. God can’t do sin, accept sin, overlook sin.
The sin nature is universal in humanity.  All of us have a sinful nature affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical. The remedy is to partake in the divine nature offered to everyone. This new nature coexists with the old nature until physical death when the old nature becomes totally non-existent for those who accept the remedy*, those who don't will continue to have their one and only sinful nature eternally which is the referred to as the second death. 

By partaking in the divine nature, one can have free will without the possibility of sin; the new creation will be sin-free.

*Everyone or anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord by embracing the life, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus with confident trust and firm persuasion will receive salvation (new nature, partake in the divine nature).

FSM can’t violate Its nature. Spoken to Maccarone in the 5 epic words in which FSM described Itself: Maccarone asked who should I say has sent me?  FSM answered, “Maccarone: I AM WHO I AM”.
FSM can’t do sin, Will accept some sin, overlook sin given a good bribe.
The sin nature is universal in humanity.  All of us have a semi sinful nature affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is Pastafarical. The remedy is to not be a total dick. This new nature coexists with the old nature until physical death after which we meet judgment.

Bless. RAmen

In Oz, the principle is pithily expressed as "don't be a cunt" 

I guess we can add another thing to the list of things that god can't do, according to christians. It's funny how the sales pitch changes over time. Used to be they were gonna rise from the dead...now they're becoming living avatars, lol.

I suppose that if anything were going to help a person indoctrinated to fear that could be it. If the guy selling slapchops told you that it would give you magical powers -and- that you would burst into flames if you didn't buy it...IDK that anyone would be sprinting towards their phones.

(March 26, 2019 at 11:08 pm)snowtracks Wrote:

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(March 25, 2019 at 9:17 am)tackattack Wrote: If it is impossible for you to sin how can you have free will?

God can’t violate his nature. Spoken to Moses in the 5 epic words in which He described himself: Moses asked who should I say has sent me?  God answered, “Moses: I AM WHO I AM”. In other words, God is defined by his nature. God can’t do sin, accept sin, overlook sin.
The sin nature is universal in humanity.  All of us have a sinful nature affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical. The remedy is to partake in the divine nature offered to everyone. This new nature coexists with the old nature until physical death when the old nature becomes totally non-existent for those who accept the remedy*, those who don't will continue to have their one and only sinful nature eternally which is the referred to as the second death. 

By partaking in the divine nature, one can have free will without the possibility of sin; the new creation will be sin-free.

*Everyone or anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord by embracing the life, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus with confident trust and firm persuasion will receive salvation (new nature, partake in the divine nature).

---

I agree with everything you said snow except "one can have free will without the possibility of sin; the new creation will be sin-free" You can not have free will without the possibility of being able to sin. If you can and do choose to sin then it is a choice. That is the point behind Romans 3:23. If you have no ability to choose a course then it is coerced/forced. If you can maintain your connection to the divine 100% of the time then it's not you making the choice. In neither instance does that mean that it is attainable in this life or that you or are are sinless in this very moment.

(March 27, 2019 at 12:26 pm)tackattack Wrote:

(March 26, 2019 at 11:08 pm)snowtracks Wrote:

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God can’t violate his nature. Spoken to Moses in the 5 epic words in which He described himself: Moses asked who should I say has sent me?  God answered, “Moses: I AM WHO I AM”. In other words, God is defined by his nature. God can’t do sin, accept sin, overlook sin.
The sin nature is universal in humanity.  All of us have a sinful nature affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical. The remedy is to partake in the divine nature offered to everyone. This new nature coexists with the old nature until physical death when the old nature becomes totally non-existent for those who accept the remedy*, those who don't will continue to have their one and only sinful nature eternally which is the referred to as the second death. 

By partaking in the divine nature, one can have free will without the possibility of sin; the new creation will be sin-free.

*Everyone or anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord by embracing the life, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus with confident trust and firm persuasion will receive salvation (new nature, partake in the divine nature).

---

I agree with everything you said snow except "one can have free will without the possibility of sin; the new creation will be sin-free" You can not have free will without the possibility of being able to sin.  If you can and do choose to sin then it is a choice. That is the point behind Romans 3:23. If you have no ability to choose a course then it is coerced/forced. If you can maintain your connection to the divine 100% of the time then it's not you making the choice. In neither instance does that mean that it is attainable in this life or that you or are are sinless in this very moment.

Free-will without the possibility of sin only after physical death since believers have been "grafted" into the divine nature. The old nature at that point would have been completely extirpated which why physical death is necessary.

Which is fine if you're talking about divine nature in the afterlife, but the implication was on THIS life and can you sin in THIS LIFE. So if you put, "in this life" before each f my statements I'm assuming you'll agree.

Why not, why -couldn't- a person have free will without the possibility of sin.?  Either in the narrow and cracked notion of christian theology or in the broader measure of some actual thing that the term might refer to?  If I have free will...I have free will.  Yet, I don't skullfuck children.  Do I skullfuck children exactly as much as I want and freely will to?  Yes.  Could I skullfuck a child?  No

There's a difference between something being a problem for your theology and a problem for will, or free will.

Did christ have free will? Did christ sin? Could christ have sinned?

How about hitting it from the other direction? Is free will or volition required for sin as innate depravity? Do you have to will to be what you are by birth? Can we will ourselves otherwise?

Death as the token? What about death modifies the situation? Do you lose your free will in death? If you retain your free will in death and sin is made possible by free will, would you not remain capable of sin? If some sin is innate then why would it matter whether you kept or lost your free will in death?

Practically, you could skullfuck a child. If you have the right equipment. Would you is a different question and is being only part of this particular part of the conversation. I agree, if you have free will you have free will. Absolute evil is the space opposite of absolute good in the vernacular. Sin is action opposite of God's will, in the vernacular. Did Christ have free will? Did Christ sin? Could Christ have sinned? Yes. No, Yes.

You can't really get rid of the interpretive structure we use to process. You can't separate the information harvester from the process. You don't have to will to be what you are, but that's a very nascent form of information gatherer without volition. We constantly will ourselves otherwise, intentionally or instinctively, albeit incrementally.

I suppose, conceptually that death signifies the termination of sensory input in the materialist view. No input no choice, no choice no will. If you retain your free will in death then there would have to be a choice and an input to continue the cycle of choosing, learning and growing. I don't know why it would matter if you kept or lost your free will in death, that wasn't my point. My point was the connotation of sin implies that you can sin this side of the afterlife. Snow seems to imply a belief "True Christians" can't sin and I was allowing snow to ellaborate on their concept.

(March 27, 2019 at 4:02 pm)tackattack Wrote: Practically, you could skullfuck a child. If you have the right equipment. Would you is a different question and is being only part of this particular part of the conversation. I agree, if you have free will you have free will. Absolute evil is the space opposite of absolute good in the vernacular. Sin is action opposite of God's will, in the vernacular. Did Christ have free will? Did Christ sin? Could Christ have sinned? Yes. No, Yes.

I think that many christians will be surprised to hear that god can sin.  I guess I don't have the right equipment to skullfuck a child even though I do have free will.  

Quote:You can't really get rid of the interpretive structure we use to process. You can't separate the information harvester from the process. You don't have to will to be what you are, but that's a very nascent form of information gatherer without volition. We constantly will ourselves otherwise, intentionally or instinctively, albeit incrementally.

Then you don't need will, let alone free will, for whatever innate depravity that christians refer to as sin.

Quote:I suppose, conceptually that death signifies the termination of sensory input in the materialist view. No input no choice, no choice no will. If you retain your free will in death then there would have to be a choice and an input to continue the cycle of choosing, learning and growing. I don't know why it would matter if you kept or lost your free will in death, that wasn't my point. My point was the connotation of sin implies that you can sin this side of the afterlife. Snow seems to imply a belief "True Christians" can't sin and I was allowing snow to ellaborate on their concept.

If we can sin this side of the afterlife, can we sin on the other?

You're giving Snow a chance to elaborate on his idea of how (or when, r why) christians can't sin..I'm giving you an opportunity to elaborate on why you think free will is required for or indicative of the ability to sin...or, if you prefer....why sin would require or be indicative of free will. Mostly because neither seems to be the case...or if either is the case, then some portion of christian theology is wrong.

This could, ofc, help op (or anyone else) with his general fear. If op just can't do anything about his sin because it's innate..well, that's that. He'll just have to learn to accept what he can't change or will to the contrary. If OP can only sin if he freely wills it, then he need not fear internal sabotage an can simply focus on being a good person.

-and if this whole christian sin song and dance is garbage from top to bottom........

Personally, I think that christian belief is a sin, both in the context of something that could or would offend a god, and in the context of a thoroughly earthly appraisal, lol..so..there's always that. I've found that this can sometimes help people worrying about the disposition of their souls, even christians with that worry, provided that they aren't the dogmatic types with inerrantist or literalist beliefs.

(or, : shudder :...both )

(March 27, 2019 at 4:02 pm)tackattack Wrote: Practically, you could skullfuck a child. If you have the right equipment. Would you is a different question and is being only part of this particular part of the conversation. I agree, if you have free will you have free will. Absolute evil is the space opposite of absolute good in the vernacular. Sin is action opposite of God's will, in the vernacular. Did Christ have free will? Did Christ sin? Could Christ have sinned? Yes. No, Yes.

You can't really get rid of the interpretive structure we use to process. You can't separate the information harvester from the process. You don't have to will to be what you are, but that's a very nascent form of information gatherer without volition. We constantly will ourselves otherwise, intentionally or instinctively, albeit incrementally.

I suppose, conceptually that death signifies the termination of sensory input in the materialist view. No input no choice, no choice no will. If you retain your free will in death then there would have to be a choice and an input to continue the cycle of choosing, learning and growing. I don't know why it would matter if you kept or lost your free will in death, that wasn't my point. My point was the connotation of sin implies that you can sin this side of the afterlife. Snow seems to imply a belief "True Christians" can't sin and I was allowing snow to ellaborate on their concept.

It seems as though God could have simplified all this mess by creating only those people he knew would never, of their own free will, commit a sinful act.

Boru