I personally think that it can swing both ways especially if you are indoctrinated in the hellfire and brimstone sort of christianity, there are countless good people who are terrified unnecessarily by death because their flavour of christianity preaches and premotes unattainable unreachable standards of behaviour and faith as a requirement for admission to the happy ever afterlife.

(July 6, 2019 at 9:13 pm)Shell B Wrote: Can you name these equally comforting notions? I specifically asked you to if I recall correctly.

Did I say it was my main objection? I can't remember, but your analogy is terrible. Many, many theists only believe the romantic aspects of their religions, doing wonderful deeds in the name of Christ, and finding comfort in the notion of heaven. It's like being fine with hockey in general because you if you remove the face bashing, it's an all right thing.

Now, did you or did you not talk shit about theists and then say your argument was against theism, not theists, because you're really skirting right over salient bits of this exchange.

I talked shit, more properly, about what theism turns a theist into. This is the contention of antitheism, after all - that the belief in personal intervening gods has notable, demonstrable, and predictable effects on human populations.

As for other equally comforting beliefs as a contemporary Christian afterlife.....talk to the entirety of the world that doesn’t believe in a contemporary Christian afterlife.

The fact that you don’t see their beliefs as equally comforting is an effect of your cultural indoctrination and personal tastes- and yet another argument for anti-theism.

Even though you aren’t a christian, you are either incapable of seeing comparable benefit ( for whatever that’s worth) in those other beliefs, or are apparently unaware of their very existence.

Try google.

You’re taking issue with a single sentence on account of it being an unflattering comparison...but it might help to remember that the people who exploit death, the vultures in my statement, don’t necessarily do so for shitty reasons. If you believe in hell and love your daughter, your going to scare the piss out of your kid. The road to perdition, and all that. That would make you a loving vulture with good intentions, but a vulture all the same.

It’s nit exactly impossible for human beings to do a shitty thing, individually and as a group, fir Good Reasons™. Antitheism contends that theism (theism....theism.....theism) persuasively compels people into that range of thought and action.

(July 7, 2019 at 10:43 am)adey67 Wrote: I personally think that it can swing both ways especially if you are indoctrinated in the hellfire and brimstone sort of christianity, there are countless good people who are terrified unnecessarily by death because their flavour of christianity preaches and premotes unattainable unreachable standards of behaviour and faith as a requirement for admission to the happy ever afterlife.

For sure. In that case, it's not bringing them any comfort.

(July 7, 2019 at 12:19 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I talked shit, more properly, about what theism turns a theist into.  

I was supposed to read that into your frank, blunt statement about theists?

Quote:As for other equally comforting beliefs as a contemporary Christian afterlife.....talk to the entirety of the world that doesn’t believe in a contemporary Christian afterlife.

I'm talking to you. 

Quote:The fact that you don’t see their beliefs as equally comforting is an effect of your cultural indoctrination and personal tastes- and yet another argument for anti-theism.

What beliefs? You've yet to present one. I've asked you . . . twice.

Quote:Even though you aren’t a christian, you are either incapable of seeing comparable benefit ( for whatever that’s worth) in those other beliefs, or are apparently unaware of their very existence.

You could enlighten me, but is it possible that you yourself don't know of one?

Quote:Try google.

Nope. I asked you. You made an assertion. You know the drill.

Quote:You’re taking issue with a single sentence on account of it being an unflattering comparison...

Nope. On the basis of it being a fucking massive blanket statement.

Quote:It’s nit exactly impossible for human beings to do a shitty thing, individually and as a group, fir Good Reasons™.  Antitheism contends that theism (theism....theism.....theism) persuasively compels people into that range of thought and action.

And, that has fuck all to do with what I was talking to you about.

You contend that (theists .... theists .... theists) are baddies. If that's not what you mean, don't say it. I suspect rather that you're backtracking like a motherfucker.

I’m an anti theist. That doesn’t mean that I think theists are bad people, lol... I’m married to one. I think that theism is a negative influence on those people, and people in general.

The old chestnut about what it takes to get a good person to do a bad thing. If you can understand arguments critical of any other similar motivator, say authoritarianism and nationalism, then you can understand antitheism. It doesn’t really matter what comfort any of the three might provide an individual (and all three do, just as any number of beliefs that have nothing to do with a contemporary Christian afterlife do, try google).

I think it generally is too.

I don't think it universally is.

Being an antitheist doesn’t mean that you or I can’t point to individual exceptions or that we think that theism can’t be useful.

Thinking that theism is a generally bad influence is a plain language description of being an antitheist.

Not exactly. You have to be opposed to theism to be an antitheist. As theism doesn't just include your more toxic religions, and most theists don't prescribe to the more toxic beliefs, I'm not opposed to theism. I'm opposed to certain behaviors that are sometimes linked to theism, but I'm opposed to those behaviors with or without the belief in a deity.

You began this by thinking that comfort provided by belief in an afterlife had anything to do with antitheism.

It shouldn’t be surprising to you that the belief in a deity, deism, is also not what antitheism refers to

We commonly point to those more general and nebulous beliefs, and their relationship as opposites on a scale of religious extremism to show that we understand the difference between the two. Even theists ( especially theists) have a strong antitheistic streak, but it’s contextualized as maltheism directed at -other- gods.

As soon as people start talking about a god-as-Uber human that intervened in life or death with a shitlist and relationships... misery isn’t far behind. No matter how comforting the belief, or how fairweather faithful the mass of believers are. Without that mass of Good Believers their shit belief would have more difficulty being normalized, or becoming culturally dominant.

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Think of antitheism in context of hitchens saying “ I will not play with your toys or be made to play with your toys”.

That’s opposition to theism. The belief that their Superman spoke is impossible to separate from the belief that you should listen to what it said or that the world ought to be made inline with its wishes ( without dipping into the antitheist ir maltheist well, at least). Whether that manifests itself as violence or social coercion is a fun convo... but, social coercion is the more effective way to produce the same ends that violence is leveraged for.

I began this by pointing out one of the merits of theism that lead me to be unable to utterly oppose theism, which is what antitheism is. Cutout the babble, antitheism is anti . . . theism. I am not opposed to theism. Therefore, I'm not anti-theist. I didn't say comfort in death has anything to do with you or antitheism. I said he has to do with me and my feelings about theism.

You're awfully defensive about antitheism. Don't take it so personally. I don't care if you oppose theism. I simply don't, which was the entirety of my statement.