Sorry, Tack...I kinda feel like trying to start a group prayer anywhere outside a religious organization without 100% certainty that everyone in the group is Christian seems more like you being discriminatory. You shouldn’t ever do that to someone. You have no idea what it’s like to be forced to either pray in a group or come out as a non-Christian in a group where almost everyone is Christian.

(July 7, 2019 at 4:43 pm)tackattack Wrote: I can see the peer pressure involved. I wouldn't threaten a coach, or even pull my child out of that circle. If that was the standard practice, and my son had a problem, we would discuss desire for conformity vs. standing for what you believe. I would teach him that not everything has to be a fight. You don't have to rail against the system to stand for what you believe. If it's not against your beliefs then accept it as the cost of social interaction if it doesn't harm you. You could stand silently, not take a knee, pick your nose. If it does harm or you can't stand idly by, withdrawal, because participation is optional. As a daddy bear, I would use it as a teaching tool for my child personally, not an opportunity to soapbox to the community.

In case I didn't mention it before, I do suffer from white male, religious privilege. That doesn't mean I can't put myself in other peoples shoes or practice thought experiments to better define my beliefs and clarify my positions. Instead of assuming I can't see this or that it's impossible for me to know that, how about you just spell out for me why in either your situation or my situation that it's not persecution to fire the coach. I understand that the boy may feel pressure to conform. That is part of the social contract for joining any group. Just as engaging in conversation risks being offended by it's engagement socially. I understand that it was not part of my written duties to have a huddle or prayer before taking the field.

Before we go really deep down the rabbit hole of did I or his peers discriminate against him for not conforming, why don't we try something different. Why don't I get an atheist to tell me of a specific example where they personally were oppressed or discriminated against. I'm certain that some have been passed over for a promotion or a job interview or some other type of direct discrimination.

Once again you are looking at this from a position of privilege.  I'm not saying this to denigrate you.  All I'm trying to do is inform you.  You don't know what it's like to be marginalized, so you still look at things from your perspective of privilege. 

As a female atheist, I've definitely felt marginalized.  Have I ever faced discrimination?  No.  Do you know why?  Because the only people who know I'm an atheist are my husband, my kids, and a select number of friends who are either athiests or atheist-friendly.  And I even feel marginalized by the atheist community.  Not here, mind you, this place has been nothing but wonderful.  But guys like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris?  They don't represent me.  They call me and other women like me 'illogical', and tell us to worry more about what's going on in the middle east than in our own communities -- because apparently they're very fond of the fallacy of relative privation.  Apparently they can be illogical too.  I'm sure many male atheists have felt marginalized too.  Many of them may feel uncomfortable coming out except where they feel comfortable with other atheists.  I can't speak for them, because i don't have their experience.  I know that it's difficult to imagine what it's like to be marginalized.  To miss out on a host of opportunities because of who you are.  It's easy from a position of privilege to look at it and say "This is how people should act, this is how I would act if I were in their shoes." when you've never had to actually walk a mile in their shoes. 

It's like how people say "The gender of the President shouldn't matter."  No, it shouldn't.  But don't think for a second little girls don't grow up recognizing that there has never been a female President.  I know for a fact I did.  So never in my 34 years of life did I ever imagine becoming President.  And my daughters look up at them and see the same thing.  And though I tell them "Yes, a woman can be President."  Like I did as a child, they find it difficult to believe when it's never been done before. 

Same thing goes with race.  "Oh race doesn't matter."  Then those same people say #NotMyAriel.  "You can't change Ariel's race!"  Nevermind all the characters who've been whitewashed throughout history.  (Like Jesus.  A white boy born in the middle east?  Now that IS a miracle).  They don't recognize that little black girls might like to see princesses who look similar to them.  (Still waiting on my Latina Disney Princess.  Even though I can pass for Caucasian).  Same thing goes with Santa Clause (I'm looking at you Megyn Kelly.  And BTW Megan is spelled with an A.)  People might say "Well, make original characters" to which I throw up the picture of that little girl that says "Why not both?"

When you have privilege, it's not easy to see the complete picture from the other side.  You might see parts, just as others with their own privileges see parts of the whole picture.  But there's still a lot that's been missing.  (And to be clear, I'm not comparing you to those groups, but using them as other examples)

You see the social risk as acceptable because you're on the side that has limited risk.  Acceptance comes easy to you.  That's not the case for everyone else.  And when it comes to kids, acceptance is everything.

(July 7, 2019 at 4:43 pm)tackattack Wrote: So because I refused to lie to customers I was an asshole?

No, tack, lol. You were an asshole for putting your god peen where it didn’t belong. Just as every excuse you’ve since given for your contention that this was in any way related to Christian persecution has been an ssshole move. If your religion compels you to any of this... what does that say about your religion?

Persecuted for your honesty my ass.

I'm sure Tack is an exception, but I'm sure the Christian right-wing collectively would lose its mind if a Muslim coach used a huddle as an opportunity for a spoken Muslim prayer or a Wiccan coach doing a Wiccan one. We're barely out of the days when they would be outraged over a Jewish prayer, but they're all 'Judeo-Christian' now. They tend to be all for separation of church and state when it's another religion violating it.

And adherence to the spirit of the Constitution isn't 'PC', it's patriotic.

(July 8, 2019 at 11:01 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: I'm sure Tack is an exception, but I'm sure the Christian right-wing collectively would lose its mind if a Muslim coach used a huddle as an opportunity for a spoken Muslim prayer or a Wiccan coach doing a Wiccan one. We're barely out of the days when they would be outraged over a Jewish prayer, but they're all 'Judeo-Christian' now. They tend to be all for separation of church and state when it's another religion violating it.

And adherence to the spirit of the Constitution isn't 'PC', it's patriotic.

In the US they would call persecution, but in reality, save from a muslim neighbourhood, the majority wouldn't take part(being christians) hence no "left out" discrimination. Actually it would put the few muslims on the spot.

But they would still bitch about it. In portugal when I played real football (not handegg), we did gatherings, but for final strategies and encouraging.

(July 7, 2019 at 5:49 pm)Losty Wrote: Sorry, Tack...I kinda feel like trying to start a group prayer anywhere outside a religious organization without 100% certainty that everyone in the group is Christian seems more like you being discriminatory. You shouldn’t ever do that to someone. You have no idea what it’s like to be forced to either pray in a group or come out as a non-Christian in a group where almost everyone is Christian.

OK I can accept that I was applying unwanted pressure to the boy to conform by starting a ritual that his parent wanted no part for him. I still don't see it as discrimination as I defined. The difference, IMO if you look at the definition I stated was the intent. I wasn't intending to single him out, the intention was actually the opposite. I didn't intend for him to feel unwelcome, because people don't wear atheists signs on their foreheads. A few simple words, after the game, with what you believe and what you don't want for your child would have been all it took. I don't have any idea from experience what it's like to have to either pray or come out. Why do you feel the need to do something you don't want to do to fit into a group? Why do you feel the need to hide who you are and what you believe?

(July 7, 2019 at 9:14 pm)Cecelia Wrote:

---

(July 7, 2019 at 4:43 pm)tackattack Wrote: I can see the peer pressure involved. I wouldn't threaten a coach, or even pull my child out of that circle. If that was the standard practice, and my son had a problem, we would discuss desire for conformity vs. standing for what you believe. I would teach him that not everything has to be a fight. You don't have to rail against the system to stand for what you believe. If it's not against your beliefs then accept it as the cost of social interaction if it doesn't harm you. You could stand silently, not take a knee, pick your nose. If it does harm or you can't stand idly by, withdrawal, because participation is optional. As a daddy bear, I would use it as a teaching tool for my child personally, not an opportunity to soapbox to the community.

In case I didn't mention it before, I do suffer from white male, religious privilege. That doesn't mean I can't put myself in other peoples shoes or practice thought experiments to better define my beliefs and clarify my positions. Instead of assuming I can't see this or that it's impossible for me to know that, how about you just spell out for me why in either your situation or my situation that it's not persecution to fire the coach. I understand that the boy may feel pressure to conform. That is part of the social contract for joining any group. Just as engaging in conversation risks being offended by it's engagement socially. I understand that it was not part of my written duties to have a huddle or prayer before taking the field.

Before we go really deep down the rabbit hole of did I or his peers discriminate against him for not conforming, why don't we try something different. Why don't I get an atheist to tell me of a specific example where they personally were oppressed or discriminated against. I'm certain that some have been passed over for a promotion or a job interview or some other type of direct discrimination.

Once again you are looking at this from a position of privilege.  I'm not saying this to denigrate you.  All I'm trying to do is inform you.  You don't know what it's like to be marginalized, so you still look at things from your perspective of privilege. 

As a female atheist, I've definitely felt marginalized.  Have I ever faced discrimination?  No.  Do you know why?  Because the only people who know I'm an atheist are my husband, my kids, and a select number of friends who are either athiests or atheist-friendly.  And I even feel marginalized by the atheist community.  Not here, mind you, this place has been nothing but wonderful.  But guys like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris?  They don't represent me.  They call me and other women like me 'illogical', and tell us to worry more about what's going on in the middle east than in our own communities -- because apparently they're very fond of the fallacy of relative privation.  Apparently they can be illogical too.  I'm sure many male atheists have felt marginalized too.  Many of them may feel uncomfortable coming out except where they feel comfortable with other atheists.  I can't speak for them, because i don't have their experience.  I know that it's difficult to imagine what it's like to be marginalized.  To miss out on a host of opportunities because of who you are.  It's easy from a position of privilege to look at it and say "This is how people should act, this is how I would act if I were in their shoes." when you've never had to actually walk a mile in their shoes. 

It's like how people say "The gender of the President shouldn't matter."  No, it shouldn't.  But don't think for a second little girls don't grow up recognizing that there has never been a female President.  I know for a fact I did.  So never in my 34 years of life did I ever imagine becoming President.  And my daughters look up at them and see the same thing.  And though I tell them "Yes, a woman can be President."  Like I did as a child, they find it difficult to believe when it's never been done before. 

Same thing goes with race.  "Oh race doesn't matter."  Then those same people say #NotMyAriel.  "You can't change Ariel's race!"  Nevermind all the characters who've been whitewashed throughout history.  (Like Jesus.  A white boy born in the middle east?  Now that IS a miracle).  They don't recognize that little black girls might like to see princesses who look similar to them.  (Still waiting on my Latina Disney Princess.  Even though I can pass for Caucasian).  Same thing goes with Santa Clause (I'm looking at you Megyn Kelly.  And BTW Megan is spelled with an A.)  People might say "Well, make original characters" to which I throw up the picture of that little girl that says "Why not both?"

When you have privilege, it's not easy to see the complete picture from the other side.  You might see parts, just as others with their own privileges see parts of the whole picture.  But there's still a lot that's been missing.  (And to be clear, I'm not comparing you to those groups, but using them as other examples)

You see the social risk as acceptable because you're on the side that has limited risk.  Acceptance comes easy to you.  That's not the case for everyone else.  And when it comes to kids, acceptance is everything.

---

I hear what you're saying. Do I even get a voice since I'm in the privileged seats? People marginalize, compartmentalize and classify as a tool every day of their lives, regardless of their position in a hierarchal structure or who runs that structure. It's a biological function of our brains. I don't classify discrimination without intent. While you've painted a picture where I can see someone might feel different or singled out, I don't see it affecting his participation in the team sport. Actually firing me and making a big stink publicly did cause the boy to get unequal play time, due to the fear of ramifications. He actually got more play time and attention than most of the other boys, isn't that unfair to the other members of the team?

(July 7, 2019 at 9:48 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(July 7, 2019 at 4:43 pm)tackattack Wrote: So because I refused to lie to customers I was an asshole?

No, tack, lol. You were an asshole for putting your god peen where it didn’t belong. Just as every excuse you’ve since given for your contention that this was in any way related to Christian persecution has been an ssshole move. If your religion compels you to any of this... what does that say about your religion?

Persecuted for your honesty my ass.

You and I agree morality doesn't come solely from one source. I attribute the majority to my belief structure, which again, has multiple sources. The biggest of which is the privileged set my angle Christian self seems to be hauling around. I believe our interpretations are very different in this aspect. I believe character always should belong, in every aspect of life. I don't compartmentalize my Christianity to Sunday's between 9 and 12. People at work, home and at the drive through know I'm a Christian. I've said that Christians, in the US aren't really persecuted or oppressed much aside from other theists and from an institutional standpoint. My God peen is attached, and tends to follow wherever I go so it applies everywhere. It belongs everywhere because it's a part of me. I still don't get why you feel my religious beliefs don't apply to every aspect of my life, including job choices. Maybe I'm missing something, you're probably going to have to spell it out for me, I haz da dumz today.

(July 8, 2019 at 11:01 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

---

I'm sure Tack is an exception, but I'm sure the Christian right-wing collectively would lose its mind if a Muslim coach used a huddle as an opportunity for a spoken Muslim prayer or a Wiccan coach doing a Wiccan one. We're barely out of the days when they would be outraged over a Jewish prayer, but they're all 'Judeo-Christian' now. They tend to be all for separation of church and state when it's another religion violating it.

And adherence to the spirit of the Constitution isn't 'PC', it's patriotic.

---

I don't think I'm an exception, because I feel like I'm part of the norm in my group, but I could be wrong. Funny side note, I really enjoyed the wiccaning (sp) and funeral rights I've been invited to. I believe in Separation of Church and State, in that there should be no favoritism from the state for any religion. I don't believe people who are religious shouldn't be in government. I don't believe there should be no religion in government, because there's people in government and I believe you can be religious and have a job in government. Although with the corruption in government it's unlikely that you'll be in the majority.

(July 3, 2019 at 5:05 pm)Losty Wrote: Can you name any type of real discrimination against Christians in America?

Also, why is that asking people not to tag you in religious posts on social media, saying happy holidays, and maintaining a separation of church and state is so often considered a war on Christianity; however, the same Christians that claim oppression have no qualms about mistreating anyone who dares to openly not be Christian?

We can not discuss politics in the church. The government will shut down any church that talks politics from the pulpit.

The church can not mandate anything not permissible by the law of the land.

The church can not self govern it's own resources. meaning if the church organization holds property, the church can not decide for it self what it can and can not do with this property. for instance our church down town bough 6 ajecent lots for parking 1 day aweek. these lots all are connected to the church one way r another and are vacant, but the local government will not allow for parking as they changed the zoning to not allow parking where for 35 years parking is allowed. now the membership suffers because they are forced to park on the street and sometimes walk miles.

The church can not refuse people if they deem them unfit for a program. 
example we have a benevolence program that gives out between 25 and 100 lbs of food. the condition you must be a church going member. the government now mandates we must give away food to any who asks despite affiliation.

The church can not tell groups no. a group of homosexuals wanted to be married in our historic church down town, and the city demanded equal use of this space. (because of tax subsidies) 

there is a face book post that explains all of this and more if you want me to post it.

All from a congress who is told it can not make any laws that govern the church.

(July 8, 2019 at 12:22 pm)tackattack Wrote:

(July 7, 2019 at 5:49 pm)Losty Wrote: Sorry, Tack...I kinda feel like trying to start a group prayer anywhere outside a religious organization without 100% certainty that everyone in the group is Christian seems more like you being discriminatory. You shouldn’t ever do that to someone. You have no idea what it’s like to be forced to either pray in a group or come out as a non-Christian in a group where almost everyone is Christian.

OK I can accept that I was applying unwanted pressure to the boy to conform by starting a ritual that his parent wanted no part for him. I still don't see it as discrimination as I defined. The difference, IMO if you look at the definition I stated was the intent. I wasn't intending to single him out, the intention was actually the opposite. I didn't intend for him to feel unwelcome, because people don't wear atheists signs on their foreheads. A few simple words, after the game, with what you believe and what you don't want for your child would have been all it took. I don't have any idea from experience what it's like to have to either pray or come out. Why do you feel the need to do something you don't want to do to fit into a group? Why do you feel the need to hide who you are and what you believe?

No, I’m sure you didn’t have any intent to discriminate against anyone. I just think Christians could do a little more considering of that type of thing. I agree that the mother could have come to you in private and discussed it with you and I do personally think that’s always the best first step. But I can understand why some people skip it. Usually if you don’t make a big stink about something nothing will be done.

As for last 2 questions, if you consider a you g child I think it’s pretty obvious why they would want to fit in and not be ostracized. Kids want to fit in. They don’t want anyone to think they’re weird.
Myself personally, I wouldn’t care at all to fit into a group that I don’t even want to belong to. I do care to hide my atheism from most people for the same reason I hide my sexuality. I don’t want to be treated badly because of negative views that come with being an atheist. A lot of people in my work environment and my community are idiots. They think atheism means I worship the devil and I hate god and I’m an evil person who sacrifices goats in my spare time for my own malicious purposes. And I don’t want to deal with that. I think that just like my sexuality, my atheism should be something that I get to choose when/if to come out about and to whom.

(July 8, 2019 at 4:05 pm)Drich Wrote:

(July 3, 2019 at 5:05 pm)Losty Wrote: Can you name any type of real discrimination against Christians in America?

Also, why is that asking people not to tag you in religious posts on social media, saying happy holidays, and maintaining a separation of church and state is so often considered a war on Christianity; however, the same Christians that claim oppression have no qualms about mistreating anyone who dares to openly not be Christian?

We can not discuss politics in the church. The government will shut down any church that talks politics from the pulpit.

The church can not mandate anything not permissible by the law of the land.

The church can not self govern it's own resources. meaning if the church organization holds property, the church can not decide for it self what it can and can not do with this property. for instance our church down town bough 6 ajecent lots for parking 1 day aweek. these lots all are connected to the church one way r another and are vacant, but the local government will not allow for parking as they changed the zoning to not allow parking where for 35 years parking is allowed. now the membership suffers because they are forced to park on the street and sometimes walk miles.

The church can not refuse people if they deem them unfit for a program. 
example we have a benevolence program that gives out between 25 and 100 lbs of food. the condition you must be a church going member. the government now mandates we must give away food to any who asks despite affiliation.

The church can not tell groups no. a group of homosexuals wanted to be married in our historic church down town, and the city demanded equal use of this space. (because of tax subsidies) 

there is a face book post that explains all of this and more if you want me to post it.

All from a congress who is told it can not make any laws that govern the church.

You realize that most of this stuff is not discrimination, but rather a lack of rights because the church doesn’t pay taxes?

Quote:We can not discuss politics in the church. The government will shut down any church that talks politics from the pulpit.

The church can not mandate anything not permissible by the law of the land.

The church can not self govern it's own resources. meaning if the church organization holds property, the church can not decide for it self what it can and can not do with this property. for instance our church down town bough 6 ajecent lots for parking 1 day aweek. these lots all are connected to the church one way r another and are vacant, but the local government will not allow for parking as they changed the zoning to not allow parking where for 35 years parking is allowed. now the membership suffers because they are forced to park on the street and sometimes walk miles.

The church can not refuse people if they deem them unfit for a program. 
example we have a benevolence program that gives out between 25 and 100 lbs of food. the condition you must be a church going member. the government now mandates we must give away food to any who asks despite affiliation.

The church can not tell groups no. a group of homosexuals wanted to be married in our historic church down town, and the city demanded equal use of this space. (because of tax subsidies) 

there is a face book post that explains all of this and more if you want me to post it.

All from a congress who is told it can not make any laws that govern the church.

So in other words no actual oppression or mistreatment and no actual breaches in the separation of church and state  . Just whining you don't get your theocracy .